Tesla exposed

Oooo

Well-known member
I have seen recent research showing they are better. It is true the lithium etc. is bad but over the liftemie it pays off. The main thing of course is getting the pollution away from the street. So many poeple suffer from car exchaust fumes
 

Oooo

Well-known member
It always gets me when people bring up population, what hey seem to be saying is due to the issues around population there is nothing we can do to improve things so we may as well keep polluting like mad. Which is crazy reasoning. Population control is a really trickky thing to achieve and of course each of us is a part of that problem. Also the amount of poluttion caused by some of the world (those in the rich western countries) is massiviely more than those in the high population areas.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
batteries (the sort used in mobile applications like cars and busses) have a very definite usable life span. I am yet to be convinced that the 2nd life or recycling costs both financial and environmental have been taken into wider consideration.

A car battery pack will not last 10 years, so cars themselves will be scrapped or recycled as the cost of replacing batteries will be higher than the residual value of the car, and a new car built to take its place.

The whole car buying model will need to change to a leasing one for this to be in any way viable in the long term. I am not sure the big picture adds up, and I currently have a hybrid petrol electric car at the moment a a company car.
Lot of research done on improving these batteries, yes like everything the lifespan is limited, but they are good and improving. The next gen batteries, use far less cobalt, and are designed to be easily recyclable. Remember the combustion engine was way dirtier for the first 70-80 years of motoring. EVs as a viable consumer product has only really been going for about 8 years and already they're well down the line in making them far cleaner lifecycles, and far easier to recycle. Still challenges to overcome, but there is a will, a market, government support, and the prices will be plummeting over the next 5 years. Tesla for example expect to have a sub 20k car on the market within the next 2 years.


 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Was is wrong with using cars used by green hydrogen? (hydrogen produced from renewable energy)

They don't need these big batteries and they will drive more than 175 miles without needing a recharge.

With electricity - we will are unlikely to produce enough renewable power for all our needs. so will need to rely on nuclear, wood pellets and some fossil fuels such as natural gas. Nuclear has its dangers and where does the waste go for the next 10,000 years?, wood pellets needs millions of trees a year (the giant Drax power station near Selby uses them and is effectively burning up 10% of North Carolina to power it. Also there are going to massive electricity demands for heating homes when gas boilers are banned.

Ref polluting the planet - its pointless people in the UK reducing carbon emissions, when China opens a new coal fired power station every month, the trapped carbon will surely just swill round the planet. When is China going to stop building coal fired stations?

If people ate less meat it was would have the biggest impact on improving the environment and of course a smaller population. When I was at school in the 1970s the world population I think was around 3,000 million now its 7,000 million? and still growing.
agreed, we have to universally, stop having so many babies. There are enormous economic problems to stop that, so we'll wait and see.

People in the west are already eating less meat, this needs more of a push, but it is effective.

EVs are important, but only part of a solution and yes getting enough green energy is always going to be difficult. We have to stop the EVS aren't the answer call though....they are part of the answer. Hydrogen cars, are expensive, and currently to produce the hydrogen needed would be nearly as harmful over the life of the car as an EV. Moving forward there are ways to improve the capture of hydrogen, which will make them greener, and I see a future of hydrogen and EV, which is far far better then Petrol and diesel.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
They are filthy things, the mining for copper and lithium for the batteries is disgusting, the generation of electricity is most countries is filthy, and the disposal of the things poses great problems. A modern diesel car is far cleaner over a normal life cycle !
That simply isn't true, these 'studies' have been put out for years, and are nonsense.

 

Laughing

Well-known member
Buses running about with next to no-one on them isn't very green is it ?
Thats true, but where cars are going is self driven taxis. No one will buy a car ni 20 years time, you will uber everywhere for 2 quid so buying a car won;t be the financially viable.

The main issue with cars isn't the crap they put into the air during running, it's the raw materials they use to build them
 

Glover_elbow

Well-known member
Do we have enough lithium and other precious metals to replace the same amount of conventional cars. Is there is a way of making steel without using fossil fuels. I think if we are to go down this super environmental route with tough deadlines then i think some things which are affordable for the masses now will become prohibitively expensive for many like air travel, cars, even meat, is that a bad thing i dont know. The biggest issue for me is how do we reign in the likes of the Chinese from using fossil fuels, what the uk does amounts to chicken feed in-comparison.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
That bloke's voice does my nut in.

The main flaw in what the guy is saying, is the cars relying on fossil fuels for electricity, it doesn't need to be that way. The USA should be sorting this out of course, but regardless....they rely on fossil fuels for "normal" cars, and also drive extremely inefficient cars/ gas guzzlers. The problem isn't Tesla, it's the USA, if they invested more in solar, wind, nuclear etc, then it would make their country cleaner, and also the car cleaner.

Electrics are getting better/ more efficient each year, everything has to start somewhere, and the regen/ efficiency of them is unreal and has already progressed so much. Most batteries should now last 300-500k miles (already), and even then, when they're finished they will still likely have good capacity or be able to be recycled. Where will they be at in 10 years, a million miles?

How efficient was obtaining oil, and refining that, to get the first cars? It's more efficient now of course, but it's still not great and its progression curve has nearly flatlined.

One thing people are forgetting is Tesla, is also not just a car company, and their self driving tech, along with their battery/ car tech will effectively make taxis super cheap, safe and reliable. This will kill off the need for a lot of people to own their own car. A big cost in getting taxis is the labour, or the driver taking up space/ weight and the fuel, take that away and a £10 taxi ride is now £2. You might be able to get a taxi to Newcastle for £10, powered by solar, then who would drive or own a car?

Then, there's the other thing which people are forgetting, or making zero allowance for. Car charging on a 3 pin plug is 2kw, with a wall charger 7-11kw and even the public ones used to be 25kW at best. Now I only really use 100kW on long trips, if I can. But there are already 350kW availablee, and within 10 years that may even be 1000kW.

A 100kW battery does about 250 miles and on a 25kW charger would take about 4 hours to charge = 62 mph charging (this is where we were/ are, Audi/ Merc etc)
A 100kW battery doing about 300 miles and on a 100kW charger would take about 1 hour to charge = 300 mph charging (this is where we are now, Tesla)
A 100kW battery doing about 350 miles and on a 350kW charger would take about 20 mins to charge = 1050 mph charging (this is where we almost are now, lucid air)
A 100kW battery doing about 400 miles and on a 500kW charger would take about 12 mins to charge = 2000 mph charging (this is where we are heading soon)
A 50kW battery doing about 200 miles and on a 500kW charger would take about 6 mins to charge = 2000 mph charging (this is where we are heading soon)
A 25kW battery doing about 150 miles and on a 1000kW charger would take about 1.5 mins to charge = 6000 mph charging (this is where we could be heading)

The above doesn't factor in that charging 10% to 90% is most time-efficient, and then the speed slows down, but they are working around this, but it's a very basic example.

The point is, if you can charge for 200 miles in 6 minutes, you don't need a 100kW battery a 50kw will do anyone, even a 25kW likely would as efficiencies increase. It means you need a lot less lithium, a lot less mining impact and also by the time that comes around solar will be even cheaper.
It also boots the "charging time" argument into touch v filling up also, as everyone has time for a 6 minute stop on a 400 mile drive (seeing as they leave the house every day on 200 mile range).
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
They are filthy things, the mining for copper and lithium for the batteries is disgusting, the generation of electricity is most countries is filthy, and the disposal of the things poses great problems. A modern diesel car is far cleaner over a normal life cycle !
I used to think that. I very much doubt it is true anymore. Especially as we move towards cleaner energy. It's why they are so popular in 100%renewable Norway
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
Yes, it is a made in china one. I used to have a pontiac Grand Prix when I was in the US, it felt like you take it apart with a lego stud remover, or maybe going over a large speed bump
I'm so jealous. I'm pleased Tesla do this constant improvements but your car will be better than mine for at least 3 reasons:
Slick black trim is WAY better then the mountains of chrome on my car
Auto boot I had to actually get a kit which is being fitted this weekend
And the main point: your doors won't fall off
 

Billy69_uk

Well-known member
Its all seems a bit too easy to keep blaming the motorist and us an individual consumers when industry, agriculture, infrastructure and large global corporations have a much bigger part to play.

But I guess while we are all focused (and taxed) on our cars and recycling our rubbish, industry and commerce continues to pollute and poison the planet. We have been force fed that we as individuals are solely responsible, and whilst we definitely contribute, the almighty £ and $ are the only things that really matter to those who ultimately make the decisions.

The 47 cruise ships operated by Carnival Cruises produce the equivalent pollution to 350 million cars a year . Astounding. Why isn't heavy marine fuel oil taxed at the same rate as consumer petrol and diesel? It isn't, and there are no plans before 2050 for it to be even considered.



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BoroMart

Well-known member
I'm so jealous. I'm pleased Tesla do this constant improvements but your car will be better than mine for at least 3 reasons:
Slick black trim is WAY better then the mountains of chrome on my car
Auto boot I had to actually get a kit which is being fitted this weekend
And the main point: your doors won't fall off
I will close and open all the doors very carefully for the first couple of weeks now!
 

Laughing

Well-known member
I did read late last year about Samsung I think working on a graphene battery that holds about the same as a lion battery but charges in 5%of the time. Won't help with recycling or renewables but will greatly increase the take up in electric cars. If you can charge in the same amount of time you can fill up people will be more inclined toward electric.

They are not for me but understand why some like them.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
I did read late last year about Samsung I think working on a graphene battery that holds about the same as a lion battery but charges in 5%of the time. Won't help with recycling or renewables but will greatly increase the take up in electric cars. If you can charge in the same amount of time you can fill up people will be more inclined toward electric.

They are not for me but understand why some like them.
I think the charging speed thing is the one myth the EV community need to bust. It's always used by people supporting ICE as a positive of an ice car. Thing is the average driver can charge from home and does less than 100 miles per day. That flips the refuelling arguement right on its head. I used to be able to do that and it seemed archaic to ever have to stop to fuel up. Your car always had enough full for a day's driving.

We do need a better motorwork high speed charging network though. Then on long journeys the same "are we actually refuelling?" Question would be asked. As you'd just charge up when you stopped for a bit to eat. That's the liberating thing about EVs: not visiting petrol stations
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
I think the charging speed thing is the one myth the EV community need to bust. It's always used by people supporting ICE as a positive of an ice car. Thing is the average driver can charge from home and does less than 100 miles per day. That flips the refuelling arguement right on its head. I used to be able to do that and it seemed archaic to ever have to stop to fuel up. Your car always had enough full for a day's driving.

We do need a better motorwork high speed charging network though. Then on long journeys the same "are we actually refuelling?" Question would be asked. As you'd just charge up when you stopped for a bit to eat. That's the liberating thing about EVs: not visiting petrol stations
I think the range issue is largely solved for Tesla, Model 3 long range has a 360 mile range, realistically around 300. That would allow you to go from Boro to Leicester, and back again. Or Boro to Canterbury. I'd need a 45 minute break after that drive.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
I think the range issue is largely solved for Tesla, Model 3 long range has a 360 mile range, realistically around 300. That would allow you to go from Boro to Leicester, and back again. Or Boro to Canterbury. I'd need a 45 minute break after that drive.
Yeah my bladder has a much shorter range than my battery!

The LR is such a car. I have the performance so suffer a bit on range thanks to the stupid little spoiler. Unless it's hot I have to do a quick splash and dash on the trip from London to my mum's in Teesside. Only about 10 mins on a supercharger though, enough for a Costa and a pee
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
Yeah my bladder has a much shorter range than my battery!

The LR is such a car. I have the performance so suffer a bit on range thanks to the stupid little spoiler. Unless it's hot I have to do a quick splash and dash on the trip from London to my mum's in Teesside. Only about 10 mins on a supercharger though, enough for a Costa and a pee
It has to said too, the Koreans have also nailed the range. They have done it by using much less powerful motors than Tesla true, but they have great range
 

Laughing

Well-known member
Yeah my bladder has a much shorter range than my battery!

The LR is such a car. I have the performance so suffer a bit on range thanks to the stupid little spoiler. Unless it's hot I have to do a quick splash and dash on the trip from London to my mum's in Teesside. Only about 10 mins on a supercharger though, enough for a Costa and a pee
I can only just make it to teesside on a full tank of fuel about 85 quid worth.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
I can only just make it to teesside on a full tank of fuel about 85 quid worth.
Yeah had similar costs from Kent, once I get the solar panels fitted, it's free up north, and a couple of supercharger splash and dashes back home. But it'll be free for the first 3 times due to my referral supercharger miles.
 
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