Shamima Begum

[atypical_boro]

It's left me depressed and is exactly the reason I left the sinking ship. Full of hateful, envious people, growing moreso by the day. I couldn't go to my local in Norton without hearing racist bile by the end.

I love my country and I dream of the day I return to it when it is a great country again, where we lead and push the word forwards in the name of progress.

This, as with many things in the last decade have been a stain on the country.

I tell you as someone who lives abroad, travels regularly and has many friends of different nations that our stock has fallen. We haven't always been popular but we did used to be somewhat respected. We're now a hateful laughing stock who stands for F all.

There is racism in most countries mate, not always towards the same cohorts. My mate lives in Norway, like most of Scandinavia, revered for its equality, tolerance, socialistic principles and high standard of living. He hears racism all the time now and it’s on the rise.

All of Western Europe has problems with racism (far worse in Eastern Europe), as does Australia where I’ve spent a fair bit of time myself. I know you’re in South East Asia and I’d be surprised if there weren’t at least some residual tensions from the war hanging around, or strong feelings about the Chinese.

Canada and Japan may be two of the “best” countries to live on Earth for a number of reasons, but they’re the exceptions that prove the rule. It took two atomic bombs to get Japan to change its ways. The country that dropped them now has as many racial issues as anywhere.

UK has its problems, of course it does, but if you’re hoping one day it will be some kind of utopia you can return to I wouldn’t hold your breath. I also wouldn’t judge the entire nation on the views of the folk in the Red Lion or Mucky Duck.

I don’t think the apprehensions around Shamima Begum can ALL be attributed to mindless racism either, we’re a country whose experienced real issues with extremism and it’s not always that easy to just move on, the wounds haven’t completely healed for me everybody. For me, liberalism is about trying to understand a range of views. People (on both sides) trying to simplify what is a very complex issue is exactly what the problem is in my view.

 

[Redwurzel]

At the beginning, I did say I was driven in two directions, because Shamima was 15 when she left and she has been groomed and radicalised to some degree when she was in the UK. I also felt very sorry for her because of the three children she has lost. It would be great if Shamima denounced ISIS and worked to stop radicalistion of young people (particularly young people of the Muslim faith). The vast majority of Muslims denounce everything ISIS did.

Shamima is 23 now and as far as I now the ISIS state no longer exists, but to my knowledge she does not denounce ISIS as an organisation or its principles. Those principles/acts included burning people alive, beheading, throwing off tall buildings (for being accused of homosexual activity) acts that totally horrified me - it reminded me of the worst atrocities for the Middle Ages. She may not have killed anybody, but she does not say (as a 23 year old) those acts were wrong (to my knowledge). Most of these acts were against people of the Muslim faith or people from the Middle East region. In some cases it was European ISIS converts murdering, abusing and torturing people, from the Middle East.

There is an element of example making by the UK authorities with SB and its a story very much highlighted in the media, but there was with the trial of Nazis in Germany from 1946 to date. Its impossible to put millions of people on trial (33% of Germans belonged to the Nazi Party) - 99% of SS and Nazis members merged back in the Germany population, some clearly denounced Nazi fascism and some just kept their heads down. Many of those Nazis/SS were under 18 in 1933 when the Nazis came to power and were groomed etc, in their cases for over 12 years but in some cases were still sent to prison. I am not saying Shamima should even be prosecuted, but to my thinking, like MI5 have assessed on questioning of her, she still presents an element of security risk, because of the opinions she still holds.

If the online ISIS videos and reports have been made up I have been manipulated and I apologise, if Shamima has fully denounced ISIS. Which would also change my opinion.

 

[Ziggy]

Her lawyers intend to appeal the the courts decision.
They did, in their judgment, express concerns about the grooming aspects. They can only make judgments on the question that is asked of them. Does anybody know what it was? But the decision does set precedent. Opening a can of worms.
We live in a country without an encoded constitution or a bill of rights supporting it.
Someone mentioned today that the 14th amendment of the American constitution stipulates that if you’re born in the US and hold American citizenship the only way that can be revoked is if you renounce it yourself.
Which apparently Johnson did for whatever reason Johnson thought would benefit himself.
Having protested for years his tax obligations there.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Her lawyers intend to appeal the the courts decision.
They did, in their judgment, express concerns about the grooming aspects. They can only make judgments on the question that is asked of them. Does anybody know what it was? But the decision does set precedent. Opening a can of worms.
We live in a country without an encoded constitution or a bill of rights supporting it.
Someone mentioned today that the 14th amendment of the American constitution stipulates that if you’re born in the US and hold American citizenship the only way that can be revoked is if you renounce it yourself.
Which apparently Johnson did for whatever reason Johnson thought would benefit himself.
Having protested for years his tax obligations there.

I heard this about the USA the other day... They have allowed all people who fought for ISIS back into the US.

 

[Big_Nothing]

There is racism in most countries mate, not always towards the same cohorts. My mate lives in Norway, like most of Scandinavia, revered for its equality, tolerance, socialistic principles and high standard of living. He hears racism all the time now and it’s on the rise.

All of Western Europe has problems with racism (far worse in Eastern Europe), as does Australia where I’ve spent a fair bit of time myself. I know you’re in South East Asia and I’d be surprised if there weren’t at least some residual tensions from the war hanging around, or strong feelings about the Chinese.

Canada and Japan may be two of the “best” countries to live on Earth for a number of reasons, but they’re the exceptions that prove the rule. It took two atomic bombs to get Japan to change its ways. The country that dropped them now has as many racial issues as anywhere.

UK has its problems, of course it does, but if you’re hoping one day it will be some kind of utopia you can return to I wouldn’t hold your breath. I also wouldn’t judge the entire nation on the views of the folk in the Red Lion or Mucky Duck.

I don’t think the apprehensions around Shamima Begum can ALL be attributed to mindless racism either, we’re a country whose experienced real issues with extremism and it’s not always that easy to just move on, the wounds haven’t completely healed for me everybody. For me, liberalism is about trying to understand a range of views. People (on both sides) trying to simplify what is a very complex issue is exactly what the problem is in my view.

There's racism in Vietnam and tribalism which is as bad to boot. By no means am I suggesting it's a place that plays out my world view. I just happen to fit in well with the city which I love. Unfortunately though, we do have issues in the UK and we have to live up to our history. If we want to wear it as a badge of honour then we need to appreciate the cost of it as well.

The place I left was very hateful in ways that my friends and family didn't even seem to realise, it seems to have gotten worse. I get one life on this planet and I'd sooner sit in linguistic ignorance and rely on body language than whatever nonsense is going on back home.

 

[Big_Nothing]

I appreciate your position, and I hear it a lot, but its ruddy depressing when people leave the UK because of these issues and say I'll return when it gets better.

How does it get better if the people who believe in better have left? I stay and handle the issues as I see them. Can't remember who it was who said it, but change comes from within.

I appreciate your position, and I hear it a lot, but its ruddy depressing when people leave the UK because of these issues and say I'll return when it gets better.

How does it get better if the people who believe in better have left? I stay and handle the issues as I see them. Can't remember who it was who said it, but change comes from within.

I agree mate. One of the people I respect the most in our Teesside is a proponent of stop whinging and make where you live better. It's one of the things that most endears me to him and his establishment because I believe fully in it.

However, life at home was not giving me enough reasons to stay. Leaving has only strengthened that resolve. I miss the craic, it was only the other day a German fella took my humour in completely the wrong way and I went to my gaff and yearned for home.

As I've said, we only get one shot and I'll be effed if I spend it in one place, especially if I am the vocal minority. Life's too short and it takes years from you.

 

[Redwurzel]

Ziggy - I am not sure of the legal situation - my posts are based on moral and practical security issues. If someone publicly disagrees with most of the human values most of us hold (right to a different sexuality, right to practice our own religion, right to free speech, Equalities Act etc) what do we do?

I know we did intern a large number of members of the UK Public In Northern Ireland in the early 70s. They were imprisoned without charge based on their believed political connections to the increasingly violent Provisional IRA and their desire for a United Ireland. They were deemed at the time a security risk. It was judged unsuccessful in the long to medium term as many became more radicalised because they had their freedom taken away. Not sure how internment fits with Bill of Rights.

Would it be better to intern Shamima in the UK?

Or just let her come here and live a normal life? (despite holding extremely radical views).

As said at the end of WW2 we did execute some British people (John Amery was one) for supporting the Nazis, admitly full adults when they did, others were given prison sentences. Those given prison sentences all dropped their fascist views.The Nazi ideology has similarities with ISIS for me.

I hope Shamima now she is 23, decides she fully believes in British Values and realises many of the practices of ISIS are wrong and are not Muslim. ISIS to me was as much a political organisation as religious based on extreme values with a disregard for other values not consistent with their own. It was not based on race or colour. It would be even better if she worked with us to stamp out the radicalisation that sucked her in. She is still young enough to start a new life in the UK.

 

[Ziggy]

Would it be better to intern Shamima in the UK?

No. It would be better, if she’s committed a crime, to put her in front of judge and jury.

 

[Redwurzel]

What is the crime if someone is judged to be a security risk, because of exteme views and beliefs?

 

[atypical_boro]

There's racism in Vietnam and tribalism which is as bad to boot. By no means am I suggesting it's a place that plays out my world view. I just happen to fit in well with the city which I love. Unfortunately though, we do have issues in the UK and we have to live up to our history. If we want to wear it as a badge of honour then we need to appreciate the cost of it as well.

The place I left was very hateful in ways that my friends and family didn't even seem to realise, it seems to have gotten worse. I get one life on this planet and I'd sooner sit in linguistic ignorance and rely on body language than whatever nonsense is going on back home.

Well, fair enough I guess.

 

[Ziggy]

Has far I know it’s not crime. There’s a few of those about in the UK apparently…she would be monitored.

 

[Wez68]

Has far I know it’s not crime. There’s a few of those about in the UK apparently…she would be monitored.

And that always ends well doesn't it .

 

[PGtips]

she had a passport just like yours though?.....

Yeh I never joined ISIS so I still have my passport

 

[FabioPorkpie]

Just watched the BBC documentary about her.

What is immediately apparent is that some of those with really strong views against her returning to the U.K. are ill-informed around the facts and the how, what, where and why of this story.
Why not watch the documentary or learn more about it, so you can see for yourself what she claims happened? And whether those claims can be verified by journalists or if the story adds up? Then make your mind up as to whether she should be stripped of her citizenship rather than returned and trialled and punished accordingly?
The whole ‘she clearly wasn’t groomed. She’s done terrible stuff, killed people. She’s definitely still a threat. Why didn’t she just leave? She saw videos of beheadings before she went there‘ gang would do well to actually watch the documentary and if they have the same view afterwards, then fair enough. At least they can say they’ve got a bit more understanding of the story from the information available to us, rather than just regurgitate talk radio/shock jock/tabloid guff, pub type chit chat, as well as occasional misinformation.
I‘m amazed at the strength of conviction/ill-feeling that some folk can have about a topic/person when they are clearly not very well informed. Actually, scratch that….given the recent history in this country, I’m not at all amazed.
We have become a ‘form angry opinion first, find out the truth/details never’ nation.

 

[Loop]

Just watched the BBC documentary about her.

What is immediately apparent is that some of those with really strong views against her returning to the U.K. are ill-informed around the facts and the how, what, where and why of this story.
Why not watch the documentary or learn more about it, so you can see for yourself what she claims happened? And whether those claims can be verified by journalists or if the story adds up? Then make your mind up as to whether she should be stripped of her citizenship rather than returned and trialled and punished accordingly?
The whole ‘she clearly wasn’t groomed. She’s done terrible stuff, killed people. She’s definitely still a threat. Why didn’t she just leave? She saw videos of beheadings before she went there‘ gang would do well to actually watch the documentary and if they have the same view afterwards, then fair enough. At least they can say they’ve got a bit more understanding of the story from the information available to us, rather than just regurgitate talk radio/shock jock/tabloid guff, pub type chit chat, as well as occasional misinformation.
I‘m amazed at the strength of conviction/ill-feeling that some folk can have about a topic/person when they are clearly not very well informed. Actually, scratch that….given the recent history in this country, I’m not at all amazed.
We have become a ‘form angry opinion first, find out the truth/details never’ nation.

You could also watch that etc and still have a differing view to you.

 

[FabioPorkpie]

You could also watch that etc and still have a differing view to you.

Absolutely you could, as I said.
(Although I still don’t see the argument for making her stateless and not taking responsibility for her actions as a British citizen, as well as our own failings.)

…… would do well to actually watch the documentary and if they have the same view afterwards, then fair enough. At least they can say they’ve got a bit more understanding of the story from the information available to us,

 

[Redwurzel]

Just watched the BBC documentary about her.

What is immediately apparent is that some of those with really strong views against her returning to the U.K. are ill-informed around the facts and the how, what, where and why of this story.
Why not watch the documentary or learn more about it, so you can see for yourself what she claims happened? And whether those claims can be verified by journalists or if the story adds up? Then make your mind up as to whether she should be stripped of her citizenship rather than returned and trialled and punished accordingly?
The whole ‘she clearly wasn’t groomed. She’s done terrible stuff, killed people. She’s definitely still a threat. Why didn’t she just leave? She saw videos of beheadings before she went there‘ gang would do well to actually watch the documentary and if they have the same view afterwards, then fair enough. At least they can say they’ve got a bit more understanding of the story from the information available to us, rather than just regurgitate talk radio/shock jock/tabloid guff, pub type chit chat, as well as occasional misinformation.
I‘m amazed at the strength of conviction/ill-feeling that some folk can have about a topic/person when they are clearly not very well informed. Actually, scratch that….given the recent history in this country, I’m not at all amazed.
We have become a ‘form angry opinion first, find out the truth/details never’ nation.

Fabio I did see the documentary and have read comments from her father.

I happy to allow Shamima back in the UK, if she says the actions (beheadings, throwing off buildings, restrictions of the rights of women, burning alive of prisoners of ISIS, bombings of music events) and its followers are totally wrong. The impression I got is she thought bits were wrong. But people are entitled to their views which could be different. I do believe she has been groomed with radical ideas as a child, but it feels to me, some of that grooming is still there. She may be frightened of attack by ISIS supporters in Syria and to me we have to trust UK officials to hold private conversations with her and make their deductions. I would the feel the same if the person was white and christian as most Nazis said they were in 1945.

 

[JackG]

It doesn't really matter whether Shemima Begum is an innocent waif or Harold Shipman in a hijab. The ruling means that, as it stands, the Home Secretary has the right to deprive up to 6 million British citizens of their citizenship. They can do this on advice from the security services, but the robustness of this advice, and the Home Secretary's interpretation, is not open to challenge in the courts.

 

[Redka]

Just watched the BBC documentary about her.

What is immediately apparent is that some of those with really strong views against her returning to the U.K. are ill-informed around the facts and the how, what, where and why of this story.
Why not watch the documentary or learn more about it, so you can see for yourself what she claims happened? And whether those claims can be verified by journalists or if the story adds up? Then make your mind up as to whether she should be stripped of her citizenship rather than returned and trialled and punished accordingly?
The whole ‘she clearly wasn’t groomed. She’s done terrible stuff, killed people. She’s definitely still a threat. Why didn’t she just leave? She saw videos of beheadings before she went there‘ gang would do well to actually watch the documentary and if they have the same view afterwards, then fair enough. At least they can say they’ve got a bit more understanding of the story from the information available to us, rather than just regurgitate talk radio/shock jock/tabloid guff, pub type chit chat, as well as occasional misinformation.
I‘m amazed at the strength of conviction/ill-feeling that some folk can have about a topic/person when they are clearly not very well informed. Actually, scratch that….given the recent history in this country, I’m not at all amazed.
We have become a ‘form angry opinion first, find out the truth/details never’ nation.

I’ll give it a watch but presumably it her version of events afterwards.

Fabio I did see the documentary and have read comments from her father.

I happy to allow Shamima back in the UK, if she says the actions (beheadings, throwing off buildings, restrictions of the rights of women, burning alive of prisoners of ISIS, bombings of music events) and its followers are totally wrong. The impression I got is she thought bits were wrong. But people are entitled to their views which could be different. I do believe she has been groomed with radical ideas as a child, but it feels to me, some of that grooming is still there. She may be frightened of attack by ISIS supporters in Syria and to me we have to trust UK officials to hold private conversations with her and make their deductions. I would the feel the same if the person was white and christian as most Nazis said they were in 1945.

but she never saw any of the attrocities and was blissfully unaware that they were going on around her. I’m watching now and just have pity for Fabio if he is gullible enough to believe anything that comes out of her mouth her - if are eyes aren’t shifting she is smiling before answering the difficult questions that’s when she’s not saying I don’t want to answer that. All this being in contradiction to her previous interviews prior to the westernisation of her appearance.

For the record I agree she should come back here and stand trial.

 

[FabioPorkpie]

Fabio I did see the documentary and have read comments from her father.

I happy to allow Shamima back in the UK, if she says the actions (beheadings, throwing off buildings, restrictions of the rights of women, burning alive of prisoners of ISIS, bombings of music events) and its followers are totally wrong. The impression I got is she thought bits were wrong. But people are entitled to their views which could be different. I do believe she has been groomed with radical ideas as a child, but it feels to me, some of that grooming is still there. She may be frightened of attack by ISIS supporters in Syria and to me we have to trust UK officials to hold private conversations with her and make their deductions. I would the feel the same if the person was white and christian as most Nazis said they were in 1945.

Yeah it‘s pretty clear that she was completely brainwashed. In the earlier interviews she spoke in a way that made that very apparent. It is also pretty clear that she had to be careful what she said, living among a camp full of ISIS followers. It is also clear that at one point in her life she bought into a terrorist ideology and supported that organisation, and that is abhorrent, but she did so from a groomed child’s perspective. She should face justice and be punished accordingly for her actions, here.
She should not be used as culture war/right wing voter bait though, (and I believe she has) whether or not she poses a threat anymore.
That there is even a discussion that it is a factor in the decision to strip her of her citizenship, shows how far we have fallen into the mess.