Shamima Begum wins right to return to UK

Interesting thread. On the subject of toughness (or not) of the uk legal system, it is a very difficult thing to get right because you have to balance the need to punish wrong doers with the desire to protect the innocent. Like any system involving human beings it is prone to error and corruption.

A totalitarian approach will necessarily mean innocent people will be punished. A liberal approach that protects individual rights first will mean guilty people will escape justice or get soft penalties. Most justice systems in democratic countries try to find a balance, thereby pleasing no one.

As for the Shamima case. Imo she is a British citizen, so she should be arrested for any crime she has committed and tried and imprisoned in this country. Regardless of whether there is any racial motivation behind the action itself, (no doubt in my mind personally looking at windrush etc) it is undoubtedly an action that plays well to a racist section of society and promotes the fear that any non white person in this country isn't really accepted as a full citizen even if they have been here since birth.
 
Willow said:
Interesting thread. On the subject of toughness (or not) of the uk legal system, it is a very difficult thing to get right because you have to balance the need to punish wrong doers with the desire to protect the innocent. Like any system involving human beings it is prone to error and corruption.

A totalitarian approach will necessarily mean innocent people will be punished. A liberal approach that protects individual rights first will mean guilty people will escape justice or get soft penalties. Most justice systems in democratic countries try to find a balance, thereby pleasing no one.

As for the Shamima case. Imo she is a British citizen, so she should be arrested for any crime she has committed and tried and imprisoned in this country. Regardless of whether there is any racial motivation behind the action itself, (no doubt in my mind personally looking at windrush etc) it is undoubtedly an action that plays well to a racist section of society and promotes the fear that any non white person in this country isn't really accepted as a full citizen even if they have been here since birth.
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don’t think comparing the wind rush and terrorism is appropriate.
We didn’t want the white widow back either.
Nowt to do with skin colour. Her ideology is to destroy western values/beliefs. Impose different law and change the world as we know it.
 
festa5 said:
Amazing how many people know all the ins and outs of this case and are prepared to summarily dispense justice based on a few articles in the media.

Of course she could have been groomed. Or do those who think she was old enough to make her own decisions also think Adam Johnson did nothing wrong then?

She might not have been groomed and even if she was it doesn't necessarily excuse everything. But I would expect as a developed nation we would conduct a full investigation/trial before reaching conclusions.

She strikes me a stupid young girl who's been brainwashed. While what she's apparently become is abhorrent I'm uneasy with judgement by daily mail columnist.

Don't get me wrong, proven terrorists deserve everything they get. Do what you want with them, couldn't care less. They are evil broken human beings.

But if she was brainwashed/groomed etc shouldn't we be doing more than just washing our hands of it. She's a British citizen and it took place on our soil? Or are we determined as a nation to head further down the route of fear and hate that's become increasingly prevalent the last few years?
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Saw this on twitter. Granted Greta is an activist. Made me chuckle.
 
Facefuzz said:
don’t think comparing the wind rush and terrorism is appropriate.
We didn’t want the white widow back either.
Nowt to do with skin colour. Her ideology is to destroy western values/beliefs. Impose different law and change the world as we know it.
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Well I wasnt really comparing them as such, merely pointing out that a government that created the Windrush situation is undoubtedly racist therefore it isn't a stretch to imagine that there was a racist element to their thinking during this decision. I'm not defending what she did in anyway, she should be punished for it to the full extent of the law. Its treason imo. Or even that we actively help her. But I do think that it is wrong to strip her of her citizenship under these circumstances. She does NOT hold dual citizenship and Bangladesh has said it will not grant her citizenship if she applies for it therefore leaving her stateless.

Again, imo, she should be left where she is and if she makes her own way back to UK she should be arrested and imprisoned.
 
grooming gangs offered in defense that those girls willingly took part in sexual activities, it was rightly dismissed on the grounds that 15 year olds cannot give consent and they were groomed.
the same rule of law should apply, that does not absolve her from all responsibility but it should be taken into consideration.
shes british, shes our problem we need to deal with her and not try and pass the problem onto a country she has never set foot in.
she needs to be deradicalised or detained indefinitely for the sake of our own security
 
Ref: Grooming

I thought we had laws in this country to protect children (under 16) being groomed.

SB was groomed to some extent when she was under 16.

Living under ISIS I imagine was extremely difficult and impossible if you disagreed with their leaders.

However - If she still believes what ISIS does/did is justified such as beheadings/throwing off buildings/chopping off limbs/keeping people captive in tiny cages/raping/denying basic human rights/ total intolerance of others even Shia Muslims - is she someone who has the right to UK citizenship?

Hence I want to know what she believes now and how she lives her life now.

To me you have to leave a little window open for people to change and be won over - in the case to wanting to live in a tolerant society. If there is no window open, you could be encouraging more trouble for the future.
 
Redwurzel said:
Ref: Grooming

I thought we had laws in this country to protect children (under 16) being groomed.

SB was groomed to some extent when she was under 16.

Living under ISIS I imagine was extremely difficult and impossible if you disagreed with their leaders.

However - If she still believes what ISIS does/did is justified such as beheadings/throwing off buildings/chopping off limbs/keeping people captive in tiny cages/raping/denying basic human rights/ total intolerance of others even Shia Muslims - is she someone who has the right to UK citizenship?

Hence I want to know what she believes now and how she lives her life now.

To me you have to leave a little window open for people to change and be won over - in the case to wanting to live in a tolerant society. If there is no window open, you could be encouraging more trouble for the future.
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And how exactly will anyone find out what she really believes. She will be coached to say exactly what she needs to do and say by her legal representatives to give her the best chance of success In her wishes. I bet she ends up serving no more than 3 years and then the world of protection and the welfare state will open up to her. It’s only fair, sowing people into suicide belts and sending them to their death, coupled with the odd beheading seems trivial in comparrison to the removal of her citizenship I guess. She was over 16 when this was happening. She only wanted to return once ISIS were fully defeated. Others were able to return well before allegedly.
 
I am astonished to see people on here advocating the death penalty in this day and age.

I wonder if those concerned voice objections to places like Saudi and their system of punishments
 
Redwurzel said:
Ref: Grooming

I thought we had laws in this country to protect children (under 16) being groomed.

SB was groomed to some extent when she was under 16.

Living under ISIS I imagine was extremely difficult and impossible if you disagreed with their leaders.

However - If she still believes what ISIS does/did is justified such as beheadings/throwing off buildings/chopping off limbs/keeping people captive in tiny cages/raping/denying basic human rights/ total intolerance of others even Shia Muslims - is she someone who has the right to UK citizenship?

Hence I want to know what she believes now and how she lives her life now.

To me you have to leave a little window open for people to change and be won over - in the case to wanting to live in a tolerant society. If there is no window open, you could be encouraging more trouble for the future.
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Say she does still have some support for ISIS - Who do you believe should be responsible for these people if not the countries they came from? Currently many of the ISIS captives are held and managed by the Kurds, who have no viable way of dealing with them in the long term (and frankly have enough problems of their own). Or if they end up free in say Syria, does it just not matter if they cause misery to citizens of other countries instead rather than being dealt with properly in the UK?
 
Borobuddah said:
I am astonished to see people on here advocating the death penalty in this day and age.

I wonder if those concerned voice objections to places like Saudi and their system of punishments
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Why?

Absolute top of my list for the death penalty are child rapists and killers.
 
I think racism had nothing to do with it, if that was the issue.

It is a legal issue nothing more or less. Legally she should go through the law of her home country, here.

CtC I thought you thought this country is corrupt, why do you think she should be brought back to a corrupt country?

This proves to me what a decent law abiding country we are.

There are examples where dreadful mistakes have been made, Windrush a very sad example.

But on the whole we are as I said, decent
 
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Who did you bribe to buy your house?
Try doing it in Spain without saying hello to the Notary.

The tax system treats everyone the same, people avoid it due to its inconsistency. The fact that snakes move to Monaco gets to me.

Our election system had a referendum on it as did Brexit We might not like the outcome but it was accepted

I have been to Crown Court at least 5 times and Magistrates too many to remember , not once was I ever comprised.

We need to attack capital wealth, it's not corruption stopping it , it's will.
My son needed pretty serious medical help, I did not need to give a back hander.

Of course there is corruption, name me a country without it.
I must live in a different UK to you.
 
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