Sack Wilder?

[Yesterdays_Jam]

Sadly I'm coming round to thinking he needs to go. His comments after the match tonight have bewildered me. Some of the tactical decision are bewildering me.

The comment: "I sometimes dont understand the level of expectation [in the boro crowd] here cause you've been out of the [Premier] division for quite a while"

If he genuinely can't see why we'd expect to be at the top end of the championship then quite simply he shouldn't be here. It's a waste of his time and ours. It makes me think he maybe sees himself as too good for us.

Similarly if he genuinely can't understand the expectation, then he can't complain about not getting the players he wanted in. If he thinks this is what we are - i.e. a bottom half champo side - then we certainly shouldn't be bidding £10m on young untested strikers.

The tactical decisions:
1) leaving Dijksteel out. Jones was our best player last season. He's had his best games working with Crooks and Dijksteel. Surely anyone would keep that trio together as often as possible. Especially so after losing Tavs pace on the other side.

2) at 2-3 down tonight, with 5 minutes injury time to go, he takes Fry off and has Crooks playing as one of the sweepers. That's our top scorer from last season. We're about to get balls in the box, get him up there. Obviously.

3) we've gone from a passing team with two forwards to a long ball team with one. That doesn't make any sense. If we're just punting balls into the box get 2 forwards on and give us a chance. If we're using McGree as a 10 we should be focusing even more on quick passing moves.

4) I don't understand what he's doing with Forss and Hoppe. Okay maybe they weren't his first choice signings. But they're here now. They're our assets. If we're going to follow a Brentford style system he needs to give them opportunities.

5) the weird criticisms. He's had a go at Crooks for too many bookings. Dijksteel for not enough bookings. Fry for clearing the ball instead of playing out. Look at tonights goals against us. 1st one we need Crooks to take a booking. Second we need Howson to clear the ball. These mistakes are happening imo because players are trying to follow his complaints/instructions.

6) somebody else already said it but players don't seem to know what they're meant to be doing. The 3rd goal past us tonight, Ng goes past Clarke and rather than follow him into the box Clarke's looking around trying to figure out who's meant to be marking him.

When can you start?

 

[Glover_elbow]

I think there’s a few things happening:

- Wilder’s getting chippy at recruitment, and now the crowd, because he feels let down by recruitment and the job’s maybe not going as he expected it to. The stunt with leaving the squad numbers free was a very clear message and we’ve now brought in two free agents, one of whom didn’t get a game in league one.

- He has been let down by recruitment, the squad’s not good enough in key, key areas and the projects are bizarre.

- It’s a hell of a big rebuild. You can’t do it all in one window, and the loan signings are on paper impressive.

- Much vaunted recruitment strategy of Kieron Scott is yet to bring in a diamond of a player. Likewise, we haven’t spent money that we’ve got to address big gaps in the squad, so you look at the chairman and whether we’re really committing to Wilder - he’s been very clear about what he needs.

- The players are simply not doing it on the pitch and we’re on a shocking run of form stretching back about six months now. Whether that’s because they’ve lost faith in the manager, or that they’re not very good in the first place, or that we’re three players light, it’s a bit of all of them.

Everyone’s under pressure a bit, and everyone’s got a share of the blame - it’s not as simple as changing the manager, though that’s what inevitably happens as it’s the easiest thing to change.

But the picture you paint is bleak it's very difficult for a manager to comeback when relationships are broken particularly with the club hierarchy and the players it will only get worse.

 

[Yesterdays_Jam]

I think there’s a few things happening:

- Wilder’s getting chippy at recruitment, and now the crowd, because he feels let down by recruitment and the job’s maybe not going as he expected it to. The stunt with leaving the squad numbers free was a very clear message and we’ve now brought in two free agents, one of whom didn’t get a game in league one.

- He has been let down by recruitment, the squad’s not good enough in key, key areas and the projects are bizarre.

- It’s a hell of a big rebuild. You can’t do it all in one window, and the loan signings are on paper impressive.

- Much vaunted recruitment strategy of Kieron Scott is yet to bring in a diamond of a player. Likewise, we haven’t spent money that we’ve got to address big gaps in the squad, so you look at the chairman and whether we’re really committing to Wilder - he’s been very clear about what he needs.

- The players are simply not doing it on the pitch and we’re on a shocking run of form stretching back about six months now. Whether that’s because they’ve lost faith in the manager, or that they’re not very good in the first place, or that we’re three players light, it’s a bit of all of them.

Everyone’s under pressure a bit, and everyone’s got a share of the blame - it’s not as simple as changing the manager, though that’s what inevitably happens as it’s the easiest thing to change.

I think one of the main problems with Wilder is that he is blameless...it's always other people's mistakes

 

[BMW E34]

How long did we sign him up for meaning how much is it going to take to pay him off.

 

[MolteniArcore]

I like Chris Wilder don't get me wrong but like many have suggested on here, since the Burnley managerial speculation last season you could say our form has been relegation material. You have to wonder if the players are forcing Gibbo's hand here as they're playing like they don't care and they only turn it up when they're losing. I saw Wilder on the sidelines tonight looking like he's fed up, even his coaching staff looked very isolated from him. There's no high fives, no willingness to team up on decisions-- something is not quite right here. I'm even surprised that Wilder was on the short list for the Bournemouth job which tells me that sentiment is amongst the bookies that he wants to leave. Ok there's speculation all the time about managers but Wilder's name seems to be one constant in the bookies odds when a job becomes available. As far as sacking Wilder I'm not too sure if it would solve anything other than making the players even more unsettled and disappointed about their situation with the club. However, SG probably should have let him go when Burnley wanted a new coach as it's been downhill since that moment.

Shouldn't this be a poll??

 

[jonny_greenings_sock]

But the picture you paint is bleak it's very difficult for a manager to comeback when relationships are broken particularly with the club hierarchy and the players it will only get worse.

Wins change everything for players. And I actually think Wilder doesn’t mind a bit of conflict. He’s a bluntly honest chap and we’ve been saying for years it would be good to have a manager who isn’t a yes man, sets standards, and stands up for what he thinks the team needs. Most of us would agree with him.

The stunt with the squad numbers was a real statement. Maybe a bit too bold.

I don’t get the sense he would take it personally or fall out with anyone. He’s not Mourinho or Rafa or even Karanka, he’s not emotional. Have worked with a few open book types like Wilder and they’re great, because they tell you the truth and you know where you stand with them but it’s never personal.

 

[BoroMart]

He surely can't mean what he's saying. He took Sheff Utd from league one to the prem so he clearly doesn't actually see being a recent prem side as a prerequisite for promotion.

So why's he saying it? What's his game?

think it was purely frustration and emotion not thought and a game

 

[the_holgate_roof]

I’m with you here and have said as much on another thread.
His comment about expectations is all I need to hear. As though the fans should just expect to get pumped 3-0 in the first half of a home tie we should be aiming to win and we should be happy about it.

I also like the hypocrisy you’ve pointed out between him questioning expectation and wanting the best players, it’s a really good point.

He is a cheeky t**t, I think because we get a really good following away from home, often selling out, that he is starting to take the fans for granted, and thinks he can serve up any old s**te…..

 

[Andy_W]

100% needs to go. No plan B, no mutual respect with the players. Cocky fat doyle.

The players aren't doing plan A for some periods, so maybe they should concentrate on doing that first?

The players we've brought in are making mistakes, and existing players are making mistakes, but you have to deal with mistakes, they're going to happen in 90 mins of football. Wilder can't make them not make mistakes, only players who are better will make less mistakes, or their positives outweigh them. Mistakes may lessen once confidence improves, so Wilder needs to sort out that somehow, but Wilder looked very down in the interview last night. It must be so frustrating, as we can play, when we actually try to.

Who have we spent money on, who we are certain should be starting every game? Were these first choice/ Wilders choices, or are we doing what we've been doing for the last decade, delivering players who managers don't really want, and selling ones we want to keep?

Forss and Hoppe were clearly not bought by Wilder, with the intention of starting games, they're behind Muniz, Chuba, Watmore and even McGree, that's ringing alarm bells about the club, not Wilder, to me anyway.

Clarke clearly wasn't first choice, so we're going to have to hope he can cut it, or if not one of the others is going to have to step up.

Seems like we've got some players in who Wilder would welcome better than nothing, as we were thin/ desperate, but none of the purchases seem like guaranteed starters to me. The free's of Lenihan and Roberts will do ok I think, but whether that's good enough, I'm not sure. At least Roberts was trying not to hoof it so much last night, seems to be doing it less every game, which is good, but he's still miles behind Steffen in that respect. I would have expected the keeper to save at least 1 out of those three goals they scored, they were good chances but not three goals good.

I doubt Wilder is telling them to lump it to Muniz, on his own, with 2/3 defenders stood next to him.

We didn't change from Plan A to Plan B last night, we just changed from not doing plan A to doing plan A.

A new manager isn't going to be able to sneak in some better centre mids, or a forward good enough to get in the other good sides.

 

[Andy_W]

Sadly I'm coming round to thinking he needs to go. His comments after the match tonight have bewildered me. Some of the tactical decision are bewildering me.

The comment: "I sometimes dont understand the level of expectation [in the boro crowd] here cause you've been out of the [Premier] division for quite a while"

If he genuinely can't see why we'd expect to be at the top end of the championship then quite simply he shouldn't be here. It's a waste of his time and ours. It makes me think he maybe sees himself as too good for us.

Similarly if he genuinely can't understand the expectation, then he can't complain about not getting the players he wanted in. If he thinks this is what we are - i.e. a bottom half champo side - then we certainly shouldn't be bidding £10m on young untested strikers.

The tactical decisions:
1) leaving Dijksteel out. Jones was our best player last season. He's had his best games working with Crooks and Dijksteel. Surely anyone would keep that trio together as often as possible. Especially so after losing Tavs pace on the other side.

2) at 2-3 down tonight, with 5 minutes injury time to go, he takes Fry off and has Crooks playing as one of the sweepers. That's our top scorer from last season. We're about to get balls in the box, get him up there. Obviously.

3) we've gone from a passing team with two forwards to a long ball team with one. That doesn't make any sense. If we're just punting balls into the box get 2 forwards on and give us a chance. If we're using McGree as a 10 we should be focusing even more on quick passing moves.

4) I don't understand what he's doing with Forss and Hoppe. Okay maybe they weren't his first choice signings. But they're here now. They're our assets. If we're going to follow a Brentford style system he needs to give them opportunities.

5) the weird criticisms. He's had a go at Crooks for too many bookings. Dijksteel for not enough bookings. Fry for clearing the ball instead of playing out. Look at tonights goals against us. 1st one we need Crooks to take a booking. Second we need Howson to clear the ball. These mistakes are happening imo because players are trying to follow his complaints/instructions.

6) somebody else already said it but players don't seem to know what they're meant to be doing. The 3rd goal past us tonight, Ng goes past Clarke and rather than follow him into the box Clarke's looking around trying to figure out who's meant to be marking him.

I think the expectation was high when we thought we were going to get a good starting LCB, a CM and two CF's, but the end of the window largely wrecked that, and now it's going to be very hard to catch up, and maintain a level to get us where I hoped we would be (top 3/4). Scraping play-offs probably best hope now, unless we pull it together quickly, and strengthen in Jan.

We've got Muniz who is good, but don't have a good enough option with him yet, Clarke clearly wasn't 1st choice and the midfield signings and lack of, seem to be poor, and couple that with losing Tav, and Howson not being as good as last year (maybe Tav was helping him look better).

1) Agree, Dijk needs to play every game

2) I think he had to take one of the back three off, so made sense to hook the slowest who had played all game. Think Crooks only covered at the back after we had committed elsewhere, don't think the idea was that he went sweeper etc.

3) I don't think Wilder is asking them to launch it, I think the players just see Muniz up there and think why not, at least this gets me out of jail if I screw up a 20 yard pass

4) They weren't bought or wanted by him, not to start with anyway, it's clear to see. The club bought those for the future.

5) Think the bookings thing is frustration, but Crooks bookings are largely in places which don't matter, when he gets wound up, or just late tackles. The defence don't seem to take one for the team at some points. It's easier to replace the back three, as we have more cover there, can't really afford Crooks to play a lot of the game sat on a yellow, or miss games through totting up.

6) 1st goal, Jones should have tracked the man, and then McNair also never thought to cover, double mistake. 2nd goal don't know how Howson was given it under pressure, ended up inside after a bad first touch, but none of the other two centre mids where anywhere to be seen, which caused him to turn back on himself. Another problem was there was also no centre-back behind him, was anyone giving him a call to get rid, he should have put it out to the side though, regardless. Players just not helping each other out here, like every man for himself. 3rd, neat one-two did us a kipper, Clarke seemed more interested in pushing their man, rather than going to the threat, and Fry was weak in cover. Mowatt half asleep to the one-two, running in treacle getting back, could have got the ball when the player cut back if had been a yard more switched on.

 

[BoroMart]

Whatever he inherited... he made it worse. A lot worse.

I don't agree, firstly he isn't in charge of recruitment, or which players to sell. So HE didn't make that worse.

Secondly, until the last couple of games performances were very good, but he was being let down by individual errors and poor reffing. Neither of which are down to the manager.

His track record st Boro is probably worse than all of even our most abject failures.

57 points in 38 league games for Wilder. 1.5 points per game.

WORSE:
Warnock 1.38 points per game
Mowbray 1.4 ppg
Strachan 1.14
Woodgate 1.05 ppg

BETTER:
Pulis 1.59 ppg
Monk 1.58 ppg

I've missed Karanka as he had a prem season to contend with, so apples-oranges comparison

So, no his record is NOT worse than the most abject failures in recent times. Not even close to Strachan and Woodgate levels.

The 2 that are better are people that inherited squads built on parachute money. So a bit apples and oranges comparison there. This is a work in progress, rather than 50m in parachute payments Wilder has a 15m transfer profit. Not by design mind, but simply because the players he wants and needs were not signed.

 

[indeedido]

Wilder has a 15m transfer profit.

No he hasn't.
The club bought Forss and Hoppe and spent £5.5m.
They also bought Clarke for £2.25m

They brought in £22.5m plus.

Wilder has not been remotely backed by Gibson. The alignment I hoped was there is yet again not.
The recruitment has been shocking.

Wilder has not helped himself - and I'm not his biggest fan.
The players too haven't helped. Many of them have played so much better for this club than they are showing.

There is no way this situation is all down to Wilder, not even close.
Gibson is at the helm.

I am fairly certain Wilder's remark about expectations here were aimed above him not at the fans.
Gibson as usual sits beyond criticism; it is a joke.

 

[UgoAfro]

I wouldn't sack him, but we were a shambles tonight, the team selection and tactics were wrong. It also doesn't help that we haven't got a single leader on the field.

Think that's why he's so keen on Lenihan. The goals were bad enough to concede but it was the (lack of a) reaction to them that I found unacceptable. Does it really require the manager to give them a bollocking at half time to get some sort of reaction? Where were our senior players on the pitch in the first half? Everyone just trudged back to the half-way line and kicked off again to continue playing in the same slack manner.

 

[boroboy6872]

No

 

[CommanderComcast]

I bet it was a happier camp and the players preferred playing for Warnock.

 

[Ian Bairds Ears]

Sadly I'm coming round to thinking he needs to go. His comments after the match tonight have bewildered me. Some of the tactical decision are bewildering me.

The comment: "I sometimes dont understand the level of expectation [in the boro crowd] here cause you've been out of the [Premier] division for quite a while"

If he genuinely can't see why we'd expect to be at the top end of the championship then quite simply he shouldn't be here. It's a waste of his time and ours. It makes me think he maybe sees himself as too good for us.

Similarly if he genuinely can't understand the expectation, then he can't complain about not getting the players he wanted in. If he thinks this is what we are - i.e. a bottom half champo side - then we certainly shouldn't be bidding £10m on young untested strikers.

The tactical decisions:
1) leaving Dijksteel out. Jones was our best player last season. He's had his best games working with Crooks and Dijksteel. Surely anyone would keep that trio together as often as possible. Especially so after losing Tavs pace on the other side.

2) at 2-3 down tonight, with 5 minutes injury time to go, he takes Fry off and has Crooks playing as one of the sweepers. That's our top scorer from last season. We're about to get balls in the box, get him up there. Obviously.

3) we've gone from a passing team with two forwards to a long ball team with one. That doesn't make any sense. If we're just punting balls into the box get 2 forwards on and give us a chance. If we're using McGree as a 10 we should be focusing even more on quick passing moves.

4) I don't understand what he's doing with Forss and Hoppe. Okay maybe they weren't his first choice signings. But they're here now. They're our assets. If we're going to follow a Brentford style system he needs to give them opportunities.

5) the weird criticisms. He's had a go at Crooks for too many bookings. Dijksteel for not enough bookings. Fry for clearing the ball instead of playing out. Look at tonights goals against us. 1st one we need Crooks to take a booking. Second we need Howson to clear the ball. These mistakes are happening imo because players are trying to follow his complaints/instructions.

6) somebody else already said it but players don't seem to know what they're meant to be doing. The 3rd goal past us tonight, Ng goes past Clarke and rather than follow him into the box Clarke's looking around trying to figure out who's meant to be marking him.

Because "you've "been out of thr premiership for a while ...did he use the word "you've....."
If that is correct them he is detached feom the club now....not we've.....you've.....he is stood out looking in pointing the finger rather than being in the middle of the arena as a gladiator looking out saying we've....

If that's true his ego has taken over and he can f&&& off sharpish.......

Sorry....

I'm afraid last night has removed the scooby doo mask....he's wanting to be away and he's playing the team and crowd and the executive to rhat effect


Such a shame ...I had high hopes...but not now....

 

[SuperStu]

Because "you've "been out of thr premiership for a while ...did he use the word "you've....."
If that is correct them he is detached feom the club now....not we've.....you've.....he is stood out looking in pointing the finger rather than being in the middle of the arena as a gladiator looking out saying we've....

If that's true his ego has taken over and he can f&&& off sharpish.......

Sorry....

I'm afraid last night has removed the scooby doo mask....he's wanting to be away and he's playing the team and crowd and the executive to rhat effect


Such a shame ...I had high hopes...but not now....

Tbf I think that's my transcribing rather than him saying "you've".

Just listened to it again. His exact wording is:

"I sometimes don't understand the level of expectation because, you know, been out the division for quite a while"

 

[BoroMart]

No he hasn't.
The club bought Forss and Hoppe and spent £5.5m.
They also bought Clarke for £2.25m

They brought in £22.5m plus.

Wilder has not been remotely backed by Gibson. The alignment I hoped was there is yet again not.
The recruitment has been shocking.

You are arguing the same point as me, I'm saying he is 15m in profit, or to put it another way, he hasn't been backed.

 

[BoroMart]

I bet it was a happier camp and the players preferred playing for Warnock.

hmmm, not sure. He fell out with a few players, Morsy (now capt for top league one side), Spence (now a prem player), Akpom (now a vital part of our squad). We couldn't get any decent footballers through the door, because they didn't want to play long ball unintellectual football.

 

[Willow]

I don't think the expectations were the problem last night. It wasn't as if we were expecting to turn over a top team, we were expecting to put up a decent fight against a very average Cardiff team and folded like a broken deckchair.