Re Jones - be careful what you wish for

jimmyjazz said:
Some fair points but Lewis Wing? Really? LW never had a run of form anywhere near that of Jones last season nor did he ever look like he had the raw talent that Jones has demonstrated.

Also, we got 8 figures for Spence and Tav and look how that turned out… what makes you think it would be anything different if we sold Jones? We should be holding on to him and doing all we can to get him back in form and coaching him to be a better player.
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Im not averse to holding on to him, and his form was really about 2 months, either side of it was less so. Was that a purple patch in his career, or is it the real Jones?! We'll find out one day, but I see a lot of chinks in his armour. Loads of players have had a great breakout season then never been able to replicate it. There is a little hyperbole over the entirety of his break out season, he did well, he had some great games, and on balance a very decent season, but he had some stinkers too.

It's all about how hard he wants to work now. He needs to work harder to improve, not ease of and think he's made it. He needs to show the mental strength of a top player if he wants to be one. I hope he does it, but we have to accept that he might not. Personally, if we had another option, I'd be benching him right now, to give him that kick up the jacksy that needs.
 
BoroMart said:
Im not averse to holding on to him, and his form was really about 2 months, either side of it was less so. Was that a purple patch in his career, or is it the real Jones?! We'll find out one day, but I see a lot of chinks in his armour. Loads of players have had a great breakout season then never been able to replicate it. There is a little hyperbole over the entirety of his break out season, he did well, he had some great games, and on balance a very decent season, but he had some stinkers too.

It's all about how hard he wants to work now. He needs to work harder to improve, not ease of and think he's made it. He needs to show the mental strength of a top player if he wants to be one. I hope he does it, but we have to accept that he might not. Personally, if we had another option, I'd be benching him right now, to give him that kick up the jacksy that needs.
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Yup can’t argue with any of that. I too think he could do with a rest. Take him out of the spotlight for a few weeks and work with him on the training ground.
 
BoroMart said:
Slaven wouldn't be a top two division striker in this day. He'd be a League One player that couldn't make the step up, and I say that as someone that watched nearly every home game he played.

It matters because the championship is a far more technical and tactical league than it used to be. It's now the 5th richest league in europe for income, and therefore player quality, it has many players of premier league experience/quality, many internationals. If you have technical weaknesses you will be targeted.

Jones has been culpable for quite a few goals conceded and yes he's created some, but he needs to cut down the defensive mistakes, and be more clinical with his crossing otherwise he's a weakness more often than a strength.
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I know you are a qualified coach from previous posts?? So I won’t argue with your opinion but if he’s at the club we should try to work on his problem areas rather than write him off in my view, hopefully Carrick will do that.

Going back to Slaven, even in his day he never looked very convincing but just kept on passing the ball into the net for season after season.
 
It's all very well saying give him a rest or leave him out but who else is there? Watmore possibly, but he's better through the middle and playing more as a forward (and is he even fit?).

Jones is one of the few genuinely quick players we have. In fact it might actually be just him and Watmore you could describe as fast.

He'll be getting a rest in a couple of weeks anyway. As frustrating as he can be, he's the best we have in that position and even when he's off it still worries the opposition.
 
As has been said above although he was frustrating at times on Saturday he still created a number of opportunities. Take him out and we would be far more pedestrian and predictable.

What he doesn't need is the crowd getitng on his back. You could clearly hear it a number of times when he made the wrong decision. Thats going to do him no good at all. Needs support and encouragement and an understanding from the fans that he is still young and has only had just over a years experience at this level.
 
Jones needs to start especially away from home. He’s an outlet for us and in his last away performance he caused Hull problems. Carrick isn’t bothered if he loses the ball once or twice As he expects it as he knows the one time he beats his man it could be the difference.

I noticed on Saturday in the first half when Jones kept hold of the ball for too long and the crowd got on his back Carrick was encouraging him to try again and not get his head down. He won’t be dropped so let’s just get behind him.
 
I love isiah he's my favourite player by a mile,do you think it's anything to do with him changing and having to learn new roles in the team.
 
anth25 said:
As has been said above although he was frustrating at times on Saturday he still created a number of opportunities. Take him out and we would be far more pedestrian and predictable.

What he doesn't need is the crowd getitng on his back. You could clearly hear it a number of times when he made the wrong decision. Thats going to do him no good at all. Needs support and encouragement and an understanding from the fans that he is still young and has only had just over a years experience at this level.
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Exactly - we want people to try things but when we do and they get it wrong we get on their back. It's infuriating.
 
BoroMart said:
Slaven wouldn't be a top two division striker in this day. He'd be a League One player that couldn't make the step up, and I say that as someone that watched nearly every home game he played.

It matters because the championship is a far more technical and tactical league than it used to be. It's now the 5th richest league in europe for income, and therefore player quality, it has many players of premier league experience/quality, many internationals. If you have technical weaknesses you will be targeted.

Jones has been culpable for quite a few goals conceded and yes he's created some, but he needs to cut down the defensive mistakes, and be more clinical with his crossing otherwise he's a weakness more often than a strength.
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Slaven was an instinctive goalscorer who would have got goals wherever whenever he played.
 
Jones has been really poor this calendar year, make no mistake about it.

Anyone who claims otherwise needs to give their head a shake.

He was absolutely excellent before then, looked destined to be a premier league player.

His drop in form has gone on far too long to be classed as a "dip". I'm not sure how he gets back to the standard he was before, but I worry for him to be honest.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I know you are a qualified coach from previous posts?? So I won’t argue with your opinion but if he’s at the club we should try to work on his problem areas rather than write him off in my view, hopefully Carrick will do that.
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I am, but that doesn't mean you don't have any valid views. I agree that I would keep him, but he needs pressure on him to be professional and improve. As an auto choice right now I think he's lacking someone to push him to be braver in possession.

As a club though, if an over inflated offer comes in compared to their current ability, we will sell. That's just where we are as a club right now. So if 10m were offered by a prem club we would take it. If someone put a cheeky 5m bid in I'd dismiss it out of hand.

But we have to sign another RW to challenge and push him. He was on the bench a few weeks back after a few really insipid games, and he came on and was refreshed, looked a different player as a an impact sub, really dangerous. Some players just need that because they can't maintain that mental freshness for the battle sat-wed-sat.

Slaven, yeah he did keep on scoring, I just feel in the modern championship, he would get 10 goals a season at best, the quality of player is much much higher than 30 years ago. Look hw few foreign players Slaven played against, he didn't play regularly against people who had been through Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal coaching for 8 years. Got to have a bit more about your game than back then. He was probably slightly better than Scott McDonald or Leroy Lita in ability but in a poorer league if we are honest.
 
asredastheycome said:
Slaven was an instinctive goalscorer who would have got goals wherever whenever he played.
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Against poor players yes, not convinced he had enough about him to do it at a higher level in the modern game. I was a big slaven fan back in the day, but he did rely on defenders switching off to gain a yard of space, and top championship defenders rarely switch off these days.
 
BoroMart said:
Against poor players yes, not convinced he had enough about him to do it at a higher level in the modern game. I was a big slaven fan back in the day, but he did rely on defenders switching off to gain a yard of space, and top championship defenders rarely switch off these days.
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I think football is a science and an art. There is the technical side to the game which is very important but there is also that creative, unexpected element where the clever players somehow find a way, maybe Bernie was in that category.
 
The thing to remember with Jones is he has come from a none league background. He is not one of these kids, like hackney, that's been at a tier 1 academy since they still believed in Santa so have had years and years of grounding and polishing. He is going to make mistakes.

Wingers are confidence players, they need to know if they get tackled or hit the first man that they aren't gonna get hooked or the fans are gonna turn on them. He might have been frustrating Saturday, but Bristol city still feared him enough to double up on him, opening up space elsewhere no the pitch and to make a tactical substitution to counter him.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I know you are a qualified coach from previous posts??
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So because BoroMart coaches some kids nobody is entitled to challenge him? Edit - have seen later he acknowledges it himself.
I would disagree re Bernie Slaven and I also saw Bernie play a hell of a lot of matches, home and away. He would score goals in today's Championship, as his ability to make space in the area and his finishing ability were outstanding.
I am not at all sure the quality of player in the Championship is so much higher now at all. If anything the gap to the top division quality is much higher now. I don't care what they are paid and how much they run - yesteryear's players would have run too if they had been made to, backed by technology.
 
MickaelDebevePhenomenal said:
The thing to remember with Jones is he has come from a none league background. He is not one of these kids, like hackney, that's been at a tier 1 academy since they still believed in Santa so have had years and years of grounding and polishing. He is going to make mistakes.
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absolutely, I brought this up the other day. Jones has had maybe 2 years of professional coaching now. Hackney has been coached by pro coaches for about 9 years, and full time coaching for over 3 years now. Jones is playing catch up to an extent, despite being 4 years older. Sot hat says something about his physical and technical abilities. Tactical and psychological might need work
 
BoroMart said:
I'll be honest, I never slagged Tav off once. In fact I defended him constantly
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No it wasn't aimed at yourself, there were a small number of posters who were obsessed with him and start 3 or more threads during and after the match at one point. Weirdly it is only ever players Boro developed who seem to attract this at such a level.
 
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