Performance vs Wage Spend

[B_G]

....and each team will have a combination of those players, and that's why looking at individuals, like Ayling, rather than as a total doesn't make sense.

It's also not 100% accurate, so why during the Monk days we under performed, or Ipswich and Sunderland have over performed over recent seasons.

In the Monk/Mowbray days I would say the main reason for underperformance was the quality of the signings. Signing average/poor players for big fees on big salaries.
We don't have that problem now. In fact we have the opposite.

Performance vs Budget is a combination of quality of recruitment and quality of coaching/management.

It's not just a reflection of the manager.
A lot of people think we are getting the recruitment right

 

[Redwurzel]

I was also considering the £29m in our accounts against the £10.5m quoted in this thread and I thought the £10.5m estimate was too low.

I expect the £10.5m is just the players wages in the first team squad, while the £29m is all staff employed by MFC - think manager, coaches, physios, scouts, business manager, commercial staff, stadium staff, academy staff, young players in the under 21s, under 18s, Foundation staff, ticket staff, website and social media staff. However I don't believe all these groups earn £18.5m in total. More like £10m.

There is definitely a correlation between money spent on players and on the pitch performance and eventually results. Posters quote why did the Monk team struggle and it had a high wage bill, but over the season that team got into the play offs with a game to spare. It was beaten 1-0 in the play offs by a high spending Villa team.

 

[changingman]

I was also considering the £29m in our accounts against the £10.5m quoted in this thread and I thought the £10.5m estimate was too low.

I expect the £10.5m is just the players wages in the first team squad, while the £29m is all staff employed by MFC - think manager, coaches, physios, scouts, business manager, commercial staff, stadium staff, academy staff, young players in the under 21s, under 18s, Foundation staff, ticket staff, website and social media staff. However I don't believe all these groups earn £18.5m in total. More like £10m.

There is definitely a correlation between money spent on players and on the pitch performance and eventually results. Posters quote why did the Monk team struggle and it had a high wage bill, but over the season that team got into the play offs with a game to spare. It was beaten 1-0 in the play offs by a high spending Villa team.

Changing manager probably didn't help either. We recruited for a particular style of play then replaced with a manager who plays an almost diametrically opposed style.

Would be interested to see the squad value and wage bill data at the start of that season.

 

[Nero]

I was also considering the £29m in our accounts against the £10.5m quoted in this thread and I thought the £10.5m estimate was too low.

I expect the £10.5m is just the players wages in the first team squad, while the £29m is all staff employed by MFC - think manager, coaches, physios, scouts, business manager, commercial staff, stadium staff, academy staff, young players in the under 21s, under 18s, Foundation staff, ticket staff, website and social media staff. However I don't believe all these groups earn £18.5m in total. More like £10m.

There is definitely a correlation between money spent on players and on the pitch performance and eventually results. Posters quote why did the Monk team struggle and it had a high wage bill, but over the season that team got into the play offs with a game to spare. It was beaten 1-0 in the play offs by a high spending Villa team.

Just been thinking the same. The 29 million must include every employee of MFC. So potentially 10 million is the first team squad budget only. That wouldn’t be too far away. Boro might have spent on transfer fees but I doubt the likes of Morris, Hamilton, Borges, Edmundson are on high salaries. Even Conway and ELL won’t be on massive wages compared to Assombalonga, for example.

 

[Redwurzel]

In the Monk/Mowbray days I would say the main reason for underperformance was the quality of the signings. Signing average/poor players for big fees on big salaries.
We don't have that problem now. In fact we have the opposite.

Performance vs Budget is a combination of quality of recruitment and quality of coaching/management.

It's not just a reflection of the manager.
A lot of people think we are getting the recruitment right

Monk was only in charge for about 22 League games and that season we finished 5th? not a major under achievement.

Mowbray did well for his first two years on a limited budget, one year we finished 7th with a mid table budget. His highest signing was £1.3m? If he had stayed in the 2013/14 season he would have done as well as Karanka that season and pushed on the following season as Friend, Ayala, Adomah, Gibson became bedded in. We seemed to draw a lot of games in August/September/October 2013.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

Even if we take the theory that higher wages means better players then in isolation it is factually incorrect. Our highest paid player is reportedly Luke Ayling. He was signed on a free transfer so there was no fee to Leeds so his wages are higher because of that. Does that make him better than he would have been if we paid him less but paid a transfer fee? Is he our best player? Are older players on higher wages always better than younger players on lower wages? If a player has a good season and we increase their salary do they improve?

There are so many variables that looking at a single one like wage spend is irrelevant. Some players are better value than others and you are getting a better player for a lower wage. Others it is the opposite and you sometimes get a player on a high wage that you can't get rid of. We have gone down the route of paying some of the highest wages in the league before with the Scotland experiment, the Monk era etc. We were dreadful. We have now gone for a different approach of getting better value for money for players. It is going quite well and we have had some great value out of players signed for small fees and low wages.

Carrick has been given a well assembled squad that is good value. It is a squad capable of challenging for the autos. We are not challenging. We are quite a long way behind. We are under performing.

We're playing our third choice keeper, third choice right back, third choice left back, second choice midfielder, second choice centre back and we only have one striker.

I'm not so sure that we're under performing. We've had a couple of draws against teams at the bottom of the table, two draws against a team at the top.

I look at the left side of our pitch and see Borges and Burgzorg, I see a bottom half pairing.

 

[Redwurzel]

Just been thinking the same. The 29 million must include every employee of MFC. So potentially 10 million is the first team squad budget only. That wouldn’t be too far away. Boro might have spent on transfer fees but I doubt the likes of Morris, Hamilton, Borges, Edmundson are on high salaries. Even Conway and ELL won’t be on massive wages compared to Assombalonga, for example.

200 employees on an average of £50k is £10m which is my guess for non playing staff. Some posters may think £50k is big, but Carrick, Woodgate, Leadbitter etc is in the non playing staff wages i.e. the 200 and wages in football are crazy nowadays.

 

[Redwurzel]

We're playing our third choice keeper, third choice right back, third choice left back, second choice midfielder, second choice centre back and we only have one striker.

I'm not so sure that we're under performing. We've had a couple of draws against teams at the bottom of the table, two draws against a team at the top.

I look at the left side of our pitch and see Borges and Burgzorg, I see a bottom half pairing.

I agree the left needs strengthening (particularly going forward) and I have been going on about this in transfer talk threads. Hamilton did not perform as high as he needed to. Burgzorg still looks like someone who is a central based forward. McGree has been injured and when not again does not look comfortable in wide positions.

I am surprised we have not brought a keeper in on loan - what is Randolph doing nowadays? Usually keepers is a relatively easy position to fill with a loan. Maybe the Club is waiting on more analysis of Dieng's problem.

 

[viv_andersons_nana]

Staffing costs must be factored into every other club’s spending as well then. As must every other factor or issue presented on this thread in terms of injuries, types of signing, changing managers and backroom staff, age and experience, etc, and how that affects wage budgets and spending at all clubs, not just Boro.

 

[Nero]

200 employees on an average of £50k is £10m which is my guess for non playing staff. Some posters may think £50k is big, but Carrick, Woodgate, Leadbitter etc is in the non playing staff wages i.e. the 200 and wages in football are crazy nowadays.

I use to work with someone who knew an MFC executive. I was told Wilder was on 950k a year. Carrick must be on similar.

 

[indeedido]

Just been thinking the same. The 29 million must include every employee of MFC. So potentially 10 million is the first team squad budget only. That wouldn’t be too far away. Boro might have spent on transfer fees but I doubt the likes of Morris, Hamilton, Borges, Edmundson are on high salaries. Even Conway and ELL won’t be on massive wages compared to Assombalonga, for example.

The £29.625m Staff Costs for 2022-23 season covered 77 Playing Staff and 151 Other Staff.
The total is not split by Playing/Other.
Playing includes all the Academy who will be on very very little.
Other staff includes anyone contracted to the club. Ticket Office, Groundstaff, Catering, Retail.

This is exactly the same structure as you will see in every other club's accounts.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Boro's first team squad budget is £10m. Only an absolute idiot would believe that.
Most of those 151 Other staff will be on very low salaries. The vast majority of the £29.6m will be on that first team squad.

And that is the budget from the season before last.

 

[Nero]

The £29.625m Staff Costs for 2022-23 season covered 77 Playing Staff and 151 Other Staff.
The total is not split by Playing/Other.
Playing includes all the Academy who will be on very very little.
Other staff includes anyone contracted to the club. Ticket Office, Groundstaff, Catering, Retail.

This is exactly the same structure as you will see in every other club's accounts.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Boro's first team squad budget is £10m. Only an absolute idiot would believe that.
Most of those 151 Other staff will be on very low salaries. The vast majority of the £29.6m will be on that first team squad.

And that is the budget from the season before last.

Only one way to know for sure. What does Football Manager have for Boro?

 

[Caesium137]

If he had stayed in the 2013/14 season he would have done as well as Karanka that season and pushed on the following season as Friend, Ayala, Adomah, Gibson became bedded in. We seemed to draw a lot of games in August/September/October 2013.

Utter rose tinted nonsense.

If that was even remotely the case why was he sacked?

Boro Championship games with Mowbray at the helm in 2013 till his sacking:

Played 33, Won 5, Drawn 9, Lost 19.

We were shipping goals for fun and we were a disorganised mess, I loved the bloke but he was taking us closer to being a League 1 team rather than a PL team.

 

[viv_andersons_nana]

It was obvious the figures in the OP were nonsense but it’s interesting to see how far off the mark they were with regards to Boro’s actual wages.

Roughly £31m last season. That is a shade below what we spent the year we went up with Aitor, and had the likes of Downing, Nugent, Stuani, Rhodes and Ramirez to pay for. It’s almost certain to be higher this season as we’ve added several new players and only moved on a handful of players who barely played for the first team, until Jones left today.

It’s clear evidence that Carrick has been absolutely backed to the hilt by the chairman and the football club as a whole.

 

[Caesium137]

It was obvious the figures in the OP were nonsense but it’s interesting to see how far off the mark they were with regards to Boro’s actual wages.

Roughly £31m last season. That is a shade below what we spent the year we went up with Aitor, and had the likes of Downing, Nugent, Stuani, Rhodes and Ramirez to pay for. It’s almost certain to be higher this season as we’ve added several new players and only moved on a handful of players who barely played for the first team, until Jones left today.

It’s clear evidence that Carrick has been absolutely backed to the hilt by the chairman and the football club as a whole.

So does that mean we're 3rd or 8th?

 

[ForssAwakens]

It was obvious the figures in the OP were nonsense but it’s interesting to see how far off the mark they were with regards to Boro’s actual wages.

Roughly £31m last season. That is a shade below what we spent the year we went up with Aitor, and had the likes of Downing, Nugent, Stuani, Rhodes and Ramirez to pay for. It’s almost certain to be higher this season as we’ve added several new players and only moved on a handful of players who barely played for the first team, until Jones left today.

It’s clear evidence that Carrick has been absolutely backed to the hilt by the chairman and the football club as a whole.

31 is totally wages over the team, coaching staff, youth, non playing staff. Not first team squad. Your using clever comparison to make a point the evidence of the account punished suggest different to absolutely backed

In the photo attached, it tells wage spend is up 1% over 5 years. 2020 isn’t much different today. We have pushed on in terms of wage bill, but shows we’re starting to invest more

 

[viv_andersons_nana]

31 is totally wages over the team, coaching staff, youth, non playing staff. Not first team squad. Your using clever comparison to make a point the evidence of the account punished suggest different to absolutely backed

In the photo attached, it tells wage spend is up 1% over 5 years. 2020 isn’t much different today. We have pushed on in terms of wage bill, but shows we’re starting to invest more

I’m not being clever. The figure we spent last season is a lick under what we spent on Aitor’s promotion team - that includes players, staff, etc.

Much like if Leeds is £45m or Plymouth’s is £7m, the figures include all staff not just players. It’s the same for everyone.

Also Carrick HAS absolutely been backed by Steve Gibson. Over £31m on staffing costs for a club not in receipt of parachute payments is actually pretty staggering when you think about it. And I would also say Carrick has earned the chairman’s backing, as has Kieron Scott. If we nail a playoff place this season they can point to improvement on last season and they will inevitably invest again next summer and beyond.

 

[ForssAwakens]

I’m not being clever. The figure we spent last season is a lick under what we spent on Aitor’s promotion team - that includes players, staff, etc.

Much like if Leeds is £45m or Plymouth’s is £7m, the figures include all staff not just players. It’s the same for everyone.

Also Carrick HAS absolutely been backed by Steve Gibson. Over £31m on staffing costs for a club not in receipt of parachute payments is actually pretty staggering when you think about it. And I would also say Carrick has earned the chairman’s backing, as has Kieron Scott. If we nail a playoff place this season they can point to improvement on last season and they will inevitably invest again next summer and beyond.

Well when you consider the other things that the accounts are telling us too. Such as for the first time we are expenditure vs revenue is 97%. The accounts are showing that we are becoming and trying to be more sustainable as a club. Less gambles are being taken with finances that other other managers have had the pleasure of benefitting from the past

Revenue doesn’t include players sales, which actually improves the position even more. The accounts suggest to me the handbrake is on as we have a new model now

 

[atypical_boro]

It was obvious the figures in the OP were nonsense but it’s interesting to see how far off the mark they were with regards to Boro’s actual wages.

Roughly £31m last season. That is a shade below what we spent the year we went up with Aitor, and had the likes of Downing, Nugent, Stuani, Rhodes and Ramirez to pay for. It’s almost certain to be higher this season as we’ve added several new players and only moved on a handful of players who barely played for the first team, until Jones left today.

It’s clear evidence that Carrick has been absolutely backed to the hilt by the chairman and the football club as a whole.

It’s a shame you have such a downer on Carrick Viv cos I really think he’ll be the guy who takes us back to the PL eventually (might not be this season). Just an opinion of course.

 

[Caesium137]

Well when you consider the other things that the accounts are telling us too. Such as for the first time we are expenditure vs revenue is 97%. The accounts are showing that we are becoming and trying to be more sustainable as a club. Less gambles are being taken with finances that other other managers have had the pleasure of benefitting from the past

Revenue doesn’t include players sales, which actually improves the position even more. The accounts suggest to me the handbrake is on as we have a new model now

But the point of the thread is we are either over or under performing our wage spend, based on an arbitrary set of figures.

So either Carrick is amazing for dragging a dead parrot into the playoffs, or we're / he is shîtè as our league position isn't solely based on wage spend?