"Nobody in their right mind would buy a used EV..."

[SmallTown]

They may well be dropping but they are still out of reach for the average motorist.
Let me repeat myself as you must of missed it.
The average age of a car on the road today is 9 years old. You can get a 9 year old car for 5k comfortably, probably less.
How do you get the average motorist into an EV for less than 5k when according too Auto trader there are less than 300 EV's under 5k available for sale in the UK at the moment.

There will be millions of average motorists in the UK so the 1st 300 have a chance but after that your stuffed.

Literally on the 1st page someone was talking about a 90k car, I know people who live in houses that are worth less.

The reality is an affordable used EV for the masses is possibly decades away.

The average price of a used car (of any drive train) is £17,641.

Plenty, and i do mean plenty, of used EV for that.

The latest on used car prices — Auto Trader Insight

Used car retail prices contracted on a year-on-year (YoY) basis for the second consecutive month in October. But the headline figure continues to mask a nuanced and resilient used car market.

www.autotraderinsight-blog.co.uk

 

[Redpete]

What happens is, over time cars get older, and people sell them, then people buy them and people sell them on. This takes time, again I don't think anyone here argues that.

Again, the point of the thread is the situation keeps improving, which it does. EVs are now an option for more people than they were 5, or 10 years ago. In 5 or 10 years time they will be an option for more people still.

I am not sure where the issue is. There are solutions for everyone out there over ICE, hybrid and EV solutions and there will continue to be for many many years to come.

Its the nature of these endless EV threads that I find pointless.

In reality the reason why many cant or wont get an EV is not range issues or charging problems or the worry about if it can tow your caravan its simply they cant afford one so its not an option.

The way people talk on here they seem to forget this.

To " celebrate " a cars that is in some cases costs more than someones home that has now deprecated so they are affordable to the well off rather than the rich has no place on a working class area football forum In my opinion.

 

[Redpete]

The average price of a used car (of any drive train) is £17,641.

Plenty, and i do mean plenty, of used EV for that.

https://www.autotraderinsight-blog....verage prices,4,308 on pre-pandemic 2019.[/UR

The sale price of a 2nd hand car is not the same as the average price of a car on the road.

Are you seriously trying to tell me the average motorist is driving around in a 17k car. that is delusional.

If you are then I have a few 9 year old cars you can have for you and your mates I will let you have them for a bargain 15k.

 

[SmallTown]

Its the nature of these endless EV threads that I find pointless.

In reality the reason why many cant or wont get an EV is not range issues or charging problems or the worry about if it can tow your caravan its simply they cant afford one so its not an option.

The way people talk on here they seem to forget this.

To " celebrate a cars that is in some cases costs more than someones home that has now deprecated so they are affordable to the well off rather than the rich has no place on a working class area football forum In my opinion.

So you are jsut anti EV. Because the nature of this EV thread has been different to any other. All other VE threads have always conceded the price is high. This is the first one to point out this is falling. Sorry that doesn't fit in with your world view but maybe that's what should change, because EV are here.

 

[m3t4tr0n]

Its the nature of these endless EV threads that I find pointless.

In reality the reason why many cant or wont get an EV is not range issues or charging problems or the worry about if it can tow your caravan its simply they cant afford one so its not an option.

The way people talk on here they seem to forget this.

To " celebrate a cars that is in some cases costs more than someones home that has now deprecated so they are affordable to the well off rather than the rich has no place on a working class area football forum In my opinion.

You seem to be arguing points that nobody here is making. Again, the one and only point of this thread is the price of 2nd hand EVs are coming down and they are now an option for more people than they were before. This is true.

I can't see anyone anywhere saying that we're done and now every person can afford one, nobody is making that claim.

You are building a straw man and arguing against it.

 

[SmallTown]

Are you seriously trying to tell me the average motorist is driving around in a 17k car.

Auitotrader are. And that's used cars only. Factor in new cars and of course the average price of cars on the road will sky rocket

 

[BoroMart]

In reality the reason why many cant or wont get an EV is not range issues or charging problems or the worry about if it can tow your caravan its simply they cant afford one so its not an option.

That's what this thread is about though isn't it? The gap is shrinking and will continue to shrink bringing the affordability of second hand EVs into the price range of more people. I still think it'll take another 10 years or so to really even out and the majority to be able to afford EVs, new or used.

 

[Redpete]

Auitotrader are. And that's used cars only. Factor in new cars and of course the average price of cars on the road will sky rocket

Do you know I actually believe you believe that.

 

[SmallTown]

That's what this thread is about though isn't it? The gap is shrinking and will continue to shrink bringing the affordability of second hand EVs into the price range of more people. I still think it'll take another 10 years or so to really even out and the majority to be able to afford EVs, new or used.

I think you're right. At least we are heading in the right direction but a couple of things need to happen: First we simply need more cars. Luckily EV purchasing has been strong for a while now. so the market can only grow and grow. The second thing is we really need to get rid of some of the old, not functional technology. Such as the rev 1 nissan leaf. It simply isn't good enough compared to what has come since. Look at the anti EV FUD: if they talk about battery degradation you can guarantee their example will be "But I know someone who bought a nissan leaf.." Same goes for old Model S tesla. They are much better but tech moved on quick in the old days.

 

[Redpete]

You seem to be arguing points that nobody here is making. Again, the one and only point of this thread is the price of 2nd hand EVs are coming down and they are now an option for more people than they were before. This is true.

I can't see anyone anywhere saying that we're done and now every person can afford one, nobody is making that claim.

You are building a straw man and arguing against it.

Yes I am a bit but as I said I just find these look at me type threads patronizing. My mum always told me not too show off.

 

[m3t4tr0n]

Yes I am a bit but as I said I just find these look at me type threads patronizing. My mum always told me not too show off.

I don't think anyone has said look at me or even shown off ? I think you just want to lash out at EVs for some reason.

 

[SmallTown]

Yes I am a bit but as I said I just find these look at me type threads patronizing. My mum always told me not too show off.

I genuinely think, despite me explaining it a couple of times. You either haven't really understood what this thread is about (based on these comments) or maybe, as Metatron says, you just want to bash EV regardless.

I hope it's the former and you take the time to consider what we are saying about the used market growing.

 

[Soutra]

I also disagree about the "lack if infrastructure" comment. There are more public chargers than there are petrol stations

That is the most misleading stat in the history of misleading stats.

Petrol stations have 6 or 8 pumps and it takes 5 minutes to fill up. You hardly ever have to wait.

Trowell services on the M1 southbound yesterday had five cars waiting to use chargers, the guy who was first in line had waited 45 minutes and all the chargers were still in use. He had to wait, didn't have enough charge to get to the next services.

 

[m3t4tr0n]

That is the most misleading stat in the history of misleading stats.

Petrol stations have 6 or 8 pumps and it takes 5 minutes to fill up. You hardly ever have to wait.

Trowell services on the M1 southbound yesterday had five cars waiting to use chargers, the guy who was first in line had waited 45 minutes and all the chargers were still in use. He had to wait, didn't have enough charge to get to the next services.

I bet there was also somewhere people were queuing for petrol though. I wouldn't go so far as to say the infrastructure is perfect yet, far from it, but the rate of install of public chargers is insane, they are going in everywhere. Some services do need a catchup though, I was at one on the way back from Glastonbury that only had 2 chargers.

All that said though, on the 5 minute thing ... these days on most modern chargers and EVs ... for example a 350kW charger now would fill my car from absolute empty in about 15 minutes. I know 15 minutes isn't 5 minutes, but again its an area that is closing in fast. Also keeping in mind I would never roll up empty and I am typically not looking to fill the car, just make sure i have enough to get home where its infinitely cheaper. I guess what I am saying is, I know its not perfect, but also the way you charge a car isn't precisely the same to the way you fill it with fuel simply because you don't have a petrol station at your house (again acknowledging that not everyone can charge from home) ... its a complex picture that has bad anecdotes but the data shows how far things had moved and will continue to move.

 

[SmallTown]

That is the most misleading stat in the history of misleading stats.

Petrol stations have 6 or 8 pumps and it takes 5 minutes to fill up. You hardly ever have to wait.

Trowell services on the M1 southbound yesterday had five cars waiting to use chargers, the guy who was first in line had waited 45 minutes and all the chargers were still in use. He had to wait, didn't have enough charge to get to the next services.

I've had to queue for petrol before. It's really not that misleading a stat when you consider a like for like comparison ignores how must EV are charged most of the time. The bit some people just can't grasp no matter how many times they are told

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

I don't think anyone has said look at me or even shown off ? I think you just want to lash out at EVs for some reason.

The comment he seems to be referring is my comment on the first page about the £90k car battery costing £9k. I referenced that in relation to someone saying battery costs were huge, but it's probably comparable to engine costs on a luxury car. Smaller cars aren't going to cost as much, and often would be under warranty in a lot of cases.

This seems to have snowballed with every post and has gone from a comment on how much a luxury car battery costs to showing off, saying look at me and EV's being unaffordable for the working class, and people shouldn't have huge cars in this forum.

As you say, it's an argument no one is having. It's a fact that EV's are becoming more affordable. If you can't afford one, get an ICE, prices will be continuing to be more affordable as more fleet and used cars enter the market. Some fleet services aren't doing ice anymore so the amount of annual fleet cars entering the market is going to rocket and they're generally well maintained due to being included in the price. Total cost of ownership also needs considering - big savings in fuel and tax. When my focus goes I'll definitely get a cheap little low range EV as it only ever gets used to go to the shops when partner at work so essentially free to drive around.

Chargers are getting faster, car apps can see which chargers are working and will plot routes to good chargers - you don't have to use busy motorway ones, we often just select one off an exit at a Starbucks or something - lots have 10+ bays and charge very fast, we grab a drink and go to toilet and travel on. And, again, it's rare, I'd say 98% our charging has been at home with only a few airport trips needing a quick 15 minute charge because most people don't drive far, and you'd rather do your full charge at home where energy is cheap or even free.

 

[Andy_W]

Sounds like getting a train!

Yeah, basically like that, but more localised and more often as there's more people using them etc.

Trains are seemingly a nightmare for running together in close proximity though, and for some reason they aren't automated yet, probably as the signage and infrastructure isn't great. They're also not particularly cost effective in the UK, where it seems to me by road could be cheaper and simpler, especially if automated and running on electric etc.

 

[m3t4tr0n]

Yeah, basically like that, but more localised and more often as there's more people using them etc.

Trains are seemingly a nightmare for running together in close proximity though, and for some reason they aren't automated yet, probably as the signage and infrastructure isn't great. They're also not particularly cost effective in the UK, where it seems to me by road could be cheaper and simpler, especially if automated and running on electric etc.

Oh to imagine what our public transportation system could have been like if it wasn't for Beeching.

 

[Andy_W]

That is the most misleading stat in the history of misleading stats.

Petrol stations have 6 or 8 pumps and it takes 5 minutes to fill up. You hardly ever have to wait.

Trowell services on the M1 southbound yesterday had five cars waiting to use chargers, the guy who was first in line had waited 45 minutes and all the chargers were still in use. He had to wait, didn't have enough charge to get to the next services.

How do you know he was waiting there 45 minutes? Was that because you were using the services for the same duration in your ICE or where you just passing through for a chat? I'm not having a dig or whatever, just trying to understand.

This is how most peoples long trips go though (not the waiting), they charge when using the services/ easting etc and if they're not daft it's easy to find a free charger. The average person isn't using a services every month, never mind every week etc.

Was he and the others waiting for the 3 fast 240kW ones, or waiting for the 2 no 11kW or 2 no 50kW ones? Incidentally they're all free now.

Personally I wouldn't be banking on stopping there unless 2/3 of the 240kW were free as I was approaching as an opportunist. It's best to not be too rigid with it, but zapmap makes it easy. There's two other services a few miles south with loads more, and Rugby 40 miles south has **** loads of 350kW.

I've not had to queue up once, in 3.5 years, honestly, it's only as hard as you make it.

Any petrol user has spent more time wasted filling their car than I have, it's impossible to be any other way, even if they have a petrol pump at home. I'm sure most are like me, otherwise there wouldn't be the 95% approval from EV users etc.

Like everyone keeps saying, probably 99% of milage done is on home charging, or not queuing, but you're always going to get 1% of people or 1% of milage or whatever who drive straight into rammed services/ chargers at busy times or get unlucky, and end up queuing. There's no fix for that, but that's not the fault of the tech, it's the fault of the user.

There does need to be more services like Ruby though, to make it easier for those who can't get their head around it, all the clued up people will head to these and the rest will be able to fight over the slower chargers dotted around.

For most people, buying an EV without home charging doesn't make sense unless they have somewhere cheap and easy to charge up, which doesn't cost them any or much extra time etc. The problem for all is not solved yet, but it doesn't need to be yet.

 

[Andy_W]

The comment he seems to be referring is my comment on the first page about the £90k car battery costing £9k. I referenced that in relation to someone saying battery costs were huge, but it's probably comparable to engine costs on a luxury car. Smaller cars aren't going to cost as much, and often would be under warranty in a lot of cases.

I partially mentioned it earlier to you, but for the benefit of others.....

No 90k car is getting an engine for 9k fitted, they will be looking at 25k I reckon. Add in the gearbox, clutch and every other part associated with the fuel and drive system and you'll be near 50k I bet.

Warranties on Engines (or any other part of the drive system) are not as good as on EV's (typically 8 years/ 100k miles), and the EV manufacturers wouldn't give these warranties if they were going to have to pay out on loads of them. Typically an expected min life of something on average would be at least double the warranty offered, I would imagine.

A sealed brushless electric motor is just about the most efficient and reliable thing man has ever made, and they've been around decades. The first electric motor came about 50 years before the car did, probably no concerns with these.

Even when a battery would be at the point of a warranty claim or when it's 10 years old or whatever this is still probably ~75% charge, so will be more than good enough for most people, it's not like when they get to 75% they just stop etc. A 250 mile range car will still be able to do 200 miles or so, which is good enough for most I bet. Most could even get by on 50-100 miles if they don't do many miles of have a second car etc. We only put petrol in our hybrid maybe once every couple of months, and it's only got a 30 mile range.