"Nobody in their right mind would buy a used EV..."

The question was about infrastructure. Which is fine and is growing with need.

Your comments about times probably ignore the fact that 60% of EV owners don't need public chargers or any wait time to refuel 99% of the time. Remember that. I think that's the key thing about EV and why people seem against it. They struggle to understand the new way of refuelling
Certainly a lot of the hysteria of queues at public charging points in the early days was down to people thinking they needed to charge up to 100% and thus spending far longer plugged in than necessary, rather than topping up from 20%-80% or whatever is best recommended and fuckng of to leave it free for someone else. or Captain Entitled just leaving it plugged in and blocking the charge point even though its fully charged.

my comment were re fag packet comparison of public capacity, i.e how many cars per hour can be refuelled EV vs Petrol/ diesel, apple vs apples

The capacity does seem to be keeping up with demand now people have worked out the fast top-up.
 
well petrol pumps rather than stations would be a better comparison to charge points, and then factor in say 2 minutes to fill up with fuel vs 30 mins to do a top up charge, and also factor in range of say 250 average for EV (although 30mins prob only gets you 150 miles) vs 2 mins fuel top up get you maybe 400 miles?
You can think about it that way the same way you could say that every plug socket in the whole of the UK can charge an EV, there's probably over 100 million of those? Not the best way unless overnight though of course, but most are charged overnight.

The reason actual individual chargers get compared to full fuel stations with multiple pumps is that probably 90% of EV milage comes from home charging etc. Not many are filling their ICE car at home etc.

Same goes for time charging, in this last year I've not used a public charger once as far as I recall and probably plugged the car in at home maybe 50 times at about 10 seconds a time. So total time for me has been < 10 minutes wasted, all year. It took me longer than that to drive to the petrol station and back to fill up the can for my lawnmower. Someone filling up once a week at Tesco is probably burning through 10 hours a year, at best, and that's time they can't use for other tasks.

The way I see it, even if you public charge 20 times, for half an hour, you're still beating ICE, when you really think about it. Those 10 hours might also be when you're eating or having a **** at the services, so not fully "wasted" etc.
 
Genuine question, what happens if you run out? In the olden days the AA would have had a can of fuel to get you to a station.

I can answer that, since I actually managed to do it last year. 😁

I ran out of charge literally 200 yards from my house about 1am. I have a home charger. Dumb me just trying to push it a little too far. I once ran out of petrol a similar distance from a petrol station doing the same thing!

Anyway, the car comes with free roadside (and home) assistance. I pressed the emergency call button in my car which connected me to the RAC. They asked a few questions to see how dangerous the place was I'd broken down, made sure I wasn't vulnerable eg a single woman, had children or frail people in the car that kind of thing. I'm a healthy single bloke, car was safe in a layby and I could walk the 200 yards to my house. The impression I got was they would have turned up pretty quickly but because there was no urgency they told me it would be a couple of hours and they'd ring me when a few minutes away so I could meet them at the car. This they did about 3am.

The mechanic didn't have a mobile charger, which they are supposed to have but still mostly didn't in the Middlesbrough neck of the woods apparently, so he had to take me to the nearest charging point. This would have been my house, but would have been slightly awkward for his vehicle due to the angle of our drive and the other cars parked on the road, so he took me to the Bannatynes nearby. The only problem was that once my electric car shuts down completely out of charge those wheels aren't moving at all, they are locked, so to get it on the trailer he had to put chocs under the wheels and winch it on, which took about half an hour and a bit of effort. Once at the charge point he waited a few minutes to make sure it was charging up ok.

Lesson learned and I won't do it again, but at least I know the whole service was spot on.

Oh, it didn't cost me anything. It was all part of the deal when I bought the car, Free lifetime roadside assistance that if I ever run out of charge they will get me to the nearest working charge point. If it happens, I just press the Vauxhall connect button in the car and they put me through to the RAC. That minimises any range anxiety. Still best to not be a d1ck though.
 
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...oh, oh oopsie


It's almost as if we just had to wait for the market to have actual cars in it.

So what you are saying is that depreciation on electric vehicles is terrible. So maybe what we're actually saying is "No one in their right mind would buy a new one............................".

As for the comment made about a nationalised EV charger scheme there certainly needs to be some government support and intervention. If you understand how private enterprise works you'll realise that these things will be planted where they'll make the most money so London, Leeds, Manchester will have shed loads of the things whilst there will be charger deserts elsewhere. Some levelling up required methinks.
 
Certainly a lot of the hysteria of queues at public charging points in the early days was down to people thinking they needed to charge up to 100% and thus spending far longer plugged in than necessary, rather than topping up from 20%-80% or whatever is best recommended and fuckng of to leave it free for someone else. or Captain Entitled just leaving it plugged in and blocking the charge point even though its fully charged.

my comment were re fag packet comparison of public capacity, i.e how many cars per hour can be refuelled EV vs Petrol/ diesel, apple vs apples
I would agree with the top bit. People definitely need educating on how to refuel an EV. The amount of people I've seen on long journeys "filling the tank" as quite amazing. I hope driving lessons now start to explain how to refuel on long journeys. And we DEFINITELY need more idling fees for drivers leaving their cars plugged in and not charging.

But I guess my point about the apples V looks comparison is that YES you are comparing how vehicles are refuelled in public. But it's not valid as a real world comparison because so much EV refuelling isn't done in public so it doesn't reflect what happens at the chargers
 
So what you are saying is that depreciation on electric vehicles is terrible. So maybe what we're actually saying is "No one in their right mind would buy a new one............................".

.
Nope. That is not what I'm saying. Prices have equalised. ICE cars depreciate like crazy too.

I guess it's Schrödinger EV isn't it? If you're determined to try and fight against the advancement you can argue that EV are too expensive and too cheap at the same time.
 
So what you are saying is that depreciation on electric vehicles is terrible. So maybe what we're actually saying is "No one in their right mind would buy a new one............................".

As for the comment made about a nationalised EV charger scheme there certainly needs to be some government support and intervention. If you understand how private enterprise works you'll realise that these things will be planted where they'll make the most money so London, Leeds, Manchester will have shed loads of the things whilst there will be charger deserts elsewhere. Some levelling up required methinks.
Nah, EV's were just holding money, and lots of them were selling over list (that was never going to last), so now they've come back to parity/ true worth. There was massive demand, but supply couldn't keep up, so used prices got jacked, but supply of new has caught up now, so 2nd hand has to naturally depreciate.

Plus loads of the early adopters now have EV's which are 2-3 years old, and as they like/ want newer cars/ tech they're swapping those for new EV's, they're not going back to ICE. Lots of them did this as their PCP's, leases or whatever came to an end so, it's a natural time to swap (for them).

The key indicator, is asking what people who have owned EV's are going to buy next, they're the ones with the most experience, and where you're likely to find the most truthful results. 95% of people wouldn't be buying another EV if it was costing more or they didn't like it, they're not going to buy on to try and prove a point to someone on a forum, they do what makes sense. Some of those going back to ICE might have been put off by high electric prices but these have come right down again now, and electric is super cheap on the right tariff. More are moving over to EV than are moving back to ICE from EV though, that's for sure.

Even a lot of the gullible have learned to cut through the lies and mistruths now, but some are slower than others. They may get there eventually.

As for chargers, they need to put a price cap on the unit cost, but I imagine the reason they are not doing this yet is that the private companies are paying for the infrastructure and grid connections etc. Even though the charging companies are making money per unit, they're still likely making a massive loss overall, and will do until the infrastructure cost has been covered. The unit cost should not make a massive difference to most EV owners at the minute though, as nearly all of them charge at home.

This is also why they probably won't role out the publicly owned chargers, as they'll have to pay the cost for the infrastructure, which they won't want the initial outlay for something which may eventually become largely redundant. They will probably just construct more power generation, so they make the money at source, not in distribution.

Once EV's make it to those who can't currently charge at home, the all the infrastructure for public chargers will already largely be in place (probably around 2030), so the government won't need to let them charge high prices at the pump and make a killing on that (as the infrastructure will be paid off by then), they will just want to tax it instead.

After 2030 there will probably be more of a shift to enabling home charging for those who can't easily install a home socket. So will be something like public street chargers, maybe somehow linked to their electric bill or some other reasonable tariff.

Then once most ICE cars are gone or are massively outnumbered, they will massive jack up the tax on electric used for car charging, or introduce a milage tax (on all vehicles, regardless of fuel system).
 
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Nope. That is not what I'm saying. Prices have equalised. ICE cars depreciate like crazy too.

I guess it's Schrödinger EV isn't it? If you're determined to try and fight against the advancement you can argue that EV are too expensive and too cheap at the same time.
I am not sure I would ever consider buying a car again. I am sure others do it too but I know Octopus now offer 2nd hand cars as part of their leasing schemes. Nobody ever buys a car as an investment (specialist classics notwithstanding) cars always depreciate. I much prefer paying a single monthly fee that covers everything, insurance, MOT, tyres, tax, servicing ... no surprise bills and I get a new car every 3 years.
 
Nah, EV's were just holding money, and lots of them were selling over list (that was never going to last), so now they've come back to parity/ true worth. There was massive demand, but supply couldn't keep up, so used prices got jacked, but supply of new has caught up now, so 2nd hand has to naturally depreciate.

Plus loads of the early adopters now have EV's which are 2-3 years old, and as they like/ want newer cars/ tech they're swapping those for new EV's, they're not going back to ICE. Lots of them did this as their PCP's, leases or whatever came to an end so, it's a natural time to swap (for them).

The key indicator, is asking what people who have owned EV's are going to buy next, they're the ones with the most experience, and where you're likely to find the most truthful results. 95% of people wouldn't be buying another EV if it was costing more or they didn't like it, they're not going to buy on to try and prove a point to someone on a forum, they do what makes sense. Some of those going back to ICE might have been put off by high electric prices but these have come right down again now, and electric is super cheap on the right tariff. More are moving over to EV than are moving back to ICE from EV though, that's for sure.

Even a lot of the gullible have learned to cut through the lies and mistruths now, but some are slower than others. They may get there eventually.
My first EV I sold at 3 times the residual PCP buyout value at the end of the contract, was quids in there.
 
I am not sure I would ever consider buying a car again. I am sure others do it too but I know Octopus now offer 2nd hand cars as part of their leasing schemes. Nobody ever buys a car as an investment (specialist classics notwithstanding) cars always depreciate. I much prefer paying a single monthly fee that covers everything, insurance, MOT, tyres, tax, servicing ... no surprise bills and I get a new car every 3 years.
Good point
 
My first EV I sold at 3 times the residual PCP buyout value at the end of the contract, was quids in there.
Haha, quality! You've nailed it there!

For my first one I got back what I paid for it, after a year, was 0% finance too, and through the company so was quid's in on tax too, cheapest motoring ever.

My current one was selling 20% over list, the dealer wanted to buy it back and I would have sold it but there was nothing else in it's class I could buy, so just held onto it. It's now down ~25-30%, but over 2.5 years I'm fine with that. They've stopped dropping now, and may even be going back up, the market seems to have over corrected a bit.

Doesn't matter anyway mind, as it's PCP anyway, so I 100% certainly won't owe anything when I hand it back in 6 months, and still in positive equity.
 
I am not sure I would ever consider buying a car again. I am sure others do it too but I know Octopus now offer 2nd hand cars as part of their leasing schemes. Nobody ever buys a car as an investment (specialist classics notwithstanding) cars always depreciate. I much prefer paying a single monthly fee that covers everything, insurance, MOT, tyres, tax, servicing ... no surprise bills and I get a new car every 3 years.
2nd hand leases are a good idea, no surprise that's coming from Octopus, they're full of good ideas.

But, I don't think there's going to be much point owning a car at all, when full self driving is rolled out properly. We're a long way behind the US in that respect but the tech shouldn't be, and once our legislation wakes up we will get parity. The tech for it isn't far away (with Tesla at least), it's already much safer than humans, but full public acceptance will take a lot of time. A lot of people are going to get forced into accepting it, before they personally accept it mind.

It's going to be much cheaper getting taxi's when they can drive themselves, I bet half the price of the fair is going on or to the driver. Theoretically a self driving car with low fuel costs should be super cheap.
 
2nd hand leases are a good idea, no surprise that's coming from Octopus, they're full of good ideas.

But, I don't think there's going to be much point owning a car at all, when full self driving is rolled out properly. We're a long way behind the US in that respect but the tech shouldn't be, and once our legislation wakes up we will get parity. The tech for it isn't far away (with Tesla at least), it's already much safer than humans, but full public acceptance will take a lot of time. A lot of people are going to get forced into accepting it, before they personally accept it mind.

It's going to be much cheaper getting taxi's when they can drive themselves, I bet half the price of the fair is going on or to the driver. Theoretically a self driving car with low fuel costs should be super cheap.
it's certainly a possibility... I am not sure we will quite get there in my lifetime, but its not out of the question. Regardless I do think that car ownership makes less and less sense in the modern age. Most people just need something that works, reliably ... so why buy and take on all the risk yourself. These things are always better managed in large volumes having organisations spread the risk and manage the stock.
 
Nope. That is not what I'm saying. Prices have equalised. ICE cars depreciate like crazy too.

I guess it's Schrödinger EV isn't it? If you're determined to try and fight against the advancement you can argue that EV are too expensive and too cheap at the same time.
Not a coherent answer but hey ho. I'm not fighting anything I'm actually considering an EV for Mrs C but given that its purchase price is 150% of the same ICE model I consider the premium too high at the moment.

However what I would ask is that people seriously consider the bigger picture. We have built an entire society around the ICE because it has given us flexible, relatively cheap mass personal transport. It has influenced where we live, where we work, where we shop, how we take our leisure so the move to EV is a big deal.

Try and think outside your own world particularly in terms of wealth, living arrangements and how you use your vehicle. To be honest if your vehicle is company owned, either your own or one you work for, you're not in a position to comment on one of the major EV issues for an awful lot of the population. I had to smile at the comment about the battery for a £90k vehicle only costing £9k so it's not such a big deal, talk about tone deaf. :) As things stand, and I live in hope of further developments and improvements, we are heading for a 2 tier society when it comes to personal transport.
 
it's certainly a possibility... I am not sure we will quite get there in my lifetime, but its not out of the question. Regardless I do think that car ownership makes less and less sense in the modern age. Most people just need something that works, reliably ... so why buy and take on all the risk yourself. These things are always better managed in large volumes having organisations spread the risk and manage the stock.
The Tories were on about allowing self driving from 2025, and I think Labour will accept that faster than the Tories would, and the self driving version we would be getting is further on from what they started out with in the US.

There's already Autopilot in the UK, been in my mates Tesla with that and it took some getting used to.

Some states in the US have approved full self driving, without anyone behind the wheel, and in some cities there's already driverless taxi's etc. I think we're a lot closer to it than people realise, for most instances, but there's still probably some way to go for all instances etc.
 
Not a coherent answer but hey ho. I'm not fighting anything I'm actually considering an EV for Mrs C but given that its purchase price is 150% of the same ICE model I consider the premium too high at the moment.

However what I would ask is that people seriously consider the bigger picture. We have built an entire society around the ICE because it has given us flexible, relatively cheap mass personal transport. It has influenced where we live, where we work, where we shop, how we take our leisure so the move to EV is a big deal.

Try and think outside your own world particularly in terms of wealth, living arrangements and how you use your vehicle. To be honest if your vehicle is company owned, either your own or one you work for, you're not in a position to comment on one of the major EV issues for an awful lot of the population. I had to smile at the comment about the battery for a £90k vehicle only costing £9k so it's not such a big deal, talk about tone deaf. :) As things stand, and I live in hope of further developments and improvements, we are heading for a 2 tier society when it comes to personal transport.
I don't think anyone here has argued there is an EV solution to every use case/budget yet. Just that its getting better and better every day.

Just for info, I pay for my car, its not provided by the company. I pay my lease, which is how most of these models work. Yes that lease is dedcuted before tax but is technically (not practically I agree) open to a lot of people. These schemes are becoming more and more common with employers just like the cycle to work schemes are/were.
 
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The Tories were on about allowing self driving from 2025, and I think Labour will accept that faster than the Tories would, and the self driving version we would be getting is further on from what they started out with in the US.

There's already Autopilot in the UK, been in my mates Tesla with that and it took some getting used to.

Some states in the US have approved full self driving, without anyone behind the wheel, and in some cities there's already driverless taxi's etc. I think we're a lot closer to it than people realise, for most instances, but there's still probably some way to go for all instances etc.
yeah its that all encompassing part I think will take the time. It should be said though that there are still issues with self drive, unsurprisingly they are lot better on motorways/highways than they are, for example, navigating town centres.
 
If I was a taxi driver I wouldn't worry about being out of a job anytime soon.

We must be a good 20 years away for the self drive technology to fully replace humans behind the wheel, if we ever get there at all.

Maybe in the US where their cities are loads younger than ours and have been designed around the car then I could see it happening but not in the UK.
 
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