"Nobody in their right mind would buy a used EV..."

[Soutra]

How do you know he was waiting there 45 minutes? Was that because you were using the services for the same duration in your ICE or where you just passing through for a chat? I'm not having a dig or whatever, just trying to understand.

This is how most peoples long trips go though (not the waiting), they charge when using the services/ easting etc and if they're not daft it's easy to find a free charger. The average person isn't using a services every month, never mind every week etc.

Was he and the others waiting for the 3 fast 240kW ones, or waiting for the 2 no 11kW or 2 no 50kW ones? Incidentally they're all free now.

Personally I wouldn't be banking on stopping there unless 2/3 of the 240kW were free as I was approaching as an opportunist. It's best to not be too rigid with it, but zapmap makes it easy. There's two other services a few miles south with loads more, and Rugby 40 miles south has **** loads of 350kW.

I've not had to queue up once, in 3.5 years, honestly, it's only as hard as you make it.

Any petrol user has spent more time wasted filling their car than I have, it's impossible to be any other way, even if they have a petrol pump at home. I'm sure most are like me, otherwise there wouldn't be the 95% approval from EV users etc.

I know the guy had been waiting 45 minutes because he told me so. The road into the the services goes right past the chargers, and the lìne of EVs was obstructing the way in - and iñ my case - I couldn't reverse out again. So I asked him to back up before I reversed out, which he did. It was pretty chaotic. He was waiting to use any charger thar was free.

I did have an EV but this is precisely why it didn't work for me.

How you can possibly think that petrol car users have wasted more time filling up than you have with your EV is beyonď me. If your destination is less than half the real world range of your EV, then electric is great. Charge it at home. But as soon as you start using public chargers on motorways at busy times, it becomes just too problematic.

 

[ForssAwakens]

I don’t know why ev’s threads are started (well I do, the op has history of wanting to get into debates)

But people are so entrenched in their view no one is going to change it

Put the d*ck measuring sticks away

 

[HolgateCorner]

I don’t know why ev’s threads are started (well I do, the op has history of wanting to get into debates)

But people are so entrenched in their view no one is going to change it

Put the d*ck measuring sticks away

You get arguments but don’t you find these threads informative?

You read a lot of rubbish in the media about EV’s both plus and minus usually sponsored by some vested interest like an oil company or a battery manufacturer but on here you get real life experiences.

I took notice of what people on here say before getting an EV and so far on both sides of the debate nothing posted on here has been wide of the mark.

 

[SmallTown]

How you can possibly think that petrol car users have wasted more time filling up than you have with your EV is beyonď me.

How is it that hard to grasp. If you can chatge at home it's completely and utterly obvious that yiu spend less time refuelling an EV than an ICE.

 

[Soutra]

How is it that hard to grasp. If you can chatge at home it's completely and utterly obvious that yiu spend less time refuelling an EV than an ICE.

Ah ok. But one episode at a public charger where you have to wait before using it uses up more time than filling up your ICE 15 times or more.

All the arguments about range not being an issue are based on people living in the NE and facing journeys of 250 miles to London or similar. But EVs are not customised to the UK. Long distance journeys in Europe or the US are not easy with a 300 mile EV.

 

[SmallTown]

Ah ok. But one episode at a public charger where you have to wait before using it uses up more time than filling up your ICE 15 times or more.

All the arguments about range not being an issue are based on people living in the NE and facing journeys of 250 miles to London or similar. But EVs are not customised to the UK. Long distance journeys in Europe or the US are not easy with a 300 mile EV.

I've never had to wait 45.monutes for a charger. I would say that your example is so statistically extremely as to be an outlier. When I travel back u0 north, the longest regular journey i I do, I cahreg for 20 minutes. Given that I charge in the place I'm stopping anyway the loss is not massive, time yourself next time you fill up, I coding time to drive to the petrol station and back and you would be surprised.

I have also done 2 massive journeys through Europe. And range isn't an issue because on a 2500km journey you stop anyway to rest

I think your argument setve to demonstrate one of the frustrations o have with Anti EV discussions. I get it, people are scared of change, they don't understand how EV are refuelled or how convenient it is. I understand people fear what they don't understand. However every anti EV argument I read is based on extremes now. Such as ridiculously busy chargers or ridiculously long journeys that most people simply don't do, or do so rarely it's not an issue.

I would have thought the fact you have to use such extremes, you have to create hypothetically long and complicated journeys, to say that EV don't work would.make you think "maybe they do, I have to work hard to disprove them"

 

[Andy_W]

How you can possibly think that petrol car users have wasted more time filling up than you have with your EV is beyonď me.

Because once a week, when I get home I take the plug which is a foot away from my car, plug it in and walk away and go in the house and eat my tea. Then the next morning I take the plug out and drive off, it's 10 seconds in total, at the most, less than a minute a month.

Good luck filling a 300-500 mile petrol tank in 10 seconds, including driving time to the fuel station and paying. My bet is overall you would be lucky to do that in 15-30 minutes, if it's not pay at the pump.

If your destination is less than half the real world range of your EV, then electric is great. Charge it at home. But as soon as you start using public chargers on motorways at busy times, it becomes just too problematic.

You're assuming you're driving straight back, from a destination which doesn't have a charger, sure that's some cases, but not all of them.

But, even if you did need to do that, how many times a year do you need to do that (or does anyone)? I do ~8-10k miles a year and haven't used a public charger once in the last year, I don't do loads of long trips like most don't. There's not much reason to be driving to Nottingham and back in a day, not for me anyway.

But say I did, my car has ~300 mile range, which is ~270 real world in summer, 250 in coldest days of winter, so that would get me there and back.

If I wanted to do 400 miles in a day (not done this for two years, I try and avoid it, like I did when I had an ICE, but Teams has saved me from this) I probably need 150 miles of extra charge, in winter. That's about 50kW of charge. At a 350kW charger I would probably average ~200kW, so it's ~15 minutes. Even if I did that once a month it would be similar to someone else going to a petrol station one or twice a month. The thing is, we both likely need to go to the services for food or drink anyway, so I don't see where my time would be wasted.

I could get by on a car with half the range and still be more productive than an ICE, I know this as I've had 20 ice cars, 2 EV's (for 3.5 years) and a Hybrid, and now understand it all exceptionally well.

Of course there will be people who drive a 400 mile round trip in a day, once or twice a week, infrastructure's probably not ready for that yet, but nobody is saying it is. But that's probably 1% of people at best. It's not a valid argument when it's claimed like that's the majority, it's a tiny minority.

People could make their lives much easier if they understood charging, batteries and charge speeds though. It's easy, takes 10 minutes to learn it.

Within a year or two every motorway services will be 200kW+ charging, maybe even 350kW. There was only one 350kW charge station about 2 years ago, now there's ~100, and they're largely on busy routes.

Solid state batteries are already being sold now, so should be in cars within a few years, these have higher energy density, longer life and charge faster, so we need to get the infrastructure in place to be ready for them. These will hoover up the 1% who do many long return trips in a week, but they don't need to do that yet, that's not how progression works.

 

[Andy_W]

I've never had to wait 45.monutes for a charger.

Exactly, you're probably a good example of a "worse case scenario" than me too, as you don't even have a home charger do you?

I was the first EV owner of anyone I know I think, recommended it to loads and every conversation we've had since has been positive. Was the first on my old estate and the first on my new one too, had tons of conversations about it. I've never known anyone wait half an hour or more, and nobody is going back to ICE, other than someone who might want a niche vehicle which EV's have not filtered through to yet (like 2 seater sports cars).

I would say that your example is so statistically extremely as to be an outlier.

I think your argument setve to demonstrate one of the frustrations o have with Anti EV discussions. I get it, people are scared of change, they don't understand how EV are refuelled or how convenient it is. I understand people fear what they don't understand.

However every anti EV argument I read is based on extremes now. Such as ridiculously busy chargers or ridiculously long journeys that most people simply don't do, or do so rarely it's not an issue.

I would have thought the fact you have to use such extremes, you have to create hypothetically long and complicated journeys, to say that EV don't work would.make you think "maybe they do, I have to work hard to disprove them"

Yeah, this is exactly it, people trying to justify an argument based on when it might not exactly suit 1-5% of cases, it's backwards. Thing is even when the 1-5% might be put out more by an EV (certainly possible) a lot of the talk just never seems to consider that nobody is filling their ice car on the drive overnight, or that people need to eat, drink, **** at services etc.

They've got so used to wasting 15 minutes driving to fill up, filling up, paying, and driving off that they no longer acknowledge the time it takes, it's like a bad habit, like someone biting their nails without even knowing they're doing it. Sure it's only 10-15 mins a time, but it all adds up.

Like I said earlier, it ***** me off now when I have to go and fill the petrol can for my lawnmower once a year

 

[HolgateCorner]

Exactly, you're probably a good example of a "worse case scenario" than me too, as you don't even have a home charger do you?

I was the first EV owner of anyone I know I think, recommended it to loads and every conversation we've had since has been positive. Was the first on my old estate and the first on my new one too, had tons of conversations about it. I've never known anyone wait half an hour or more, and nobody is going back to ICE, other than someone who might want a niche vehicle which EV's have not filtered through to yet (like 2 seater sports cars).



Yeah, this is exactly it, people trying to justify an argument based on when it might not exactly suit 1-5% of cases, it's backwards. Thing is even when the 1-5% might be put out more by an EV (certainly possible) a lot of the talk just never seems to consider that nobody is filling their ice car on the drive overnight, or that people need to eat, drink, **** at services etc.

They've got so used to wasting 15 minutes driving to fill up, filling up, paying, and driving off that they no longer acknowledge the time it takes, it's like a bad habit, like someone biting their nails without even knowing they're doing it. Sure it's only 10-15 mins a time, but it all adds up.

Like I said earlier, it ***** me off now when I have to go and fill the petrol can for my lawnmower once a year

You can get a good rechargeable electric lawnmower from Aldi.

 

[Andy_W]

You can get a good rechargeable electric lawnmower from Aldi.

Yeah I'm gonna get a rechargeable electric one when this petrol one dies, but it just won't die haha.

A self propelled one or an automatic one would be nice, got quite a lot of grass.

 

[SmallTown]

Exactly, you're probably a good example of a "worse case scenario" than me too, as you don't even have a home charger do you?

I was the first EV owner of anyone I know I think, recommended it to loads and every conversation we've had since has been positive. Was the first on my old estate and the first on my new one too, had tons of conversations about it. I've never known anyone wait half an hour or more, and nobody is going back to ICE, other than someone who might want a niche vehicle which EV's have not filtered through to yet (like 2 seater sports cars).



Yeah, this is exactly it, people trying to justify an argument based on when it might not exactly suit 1-5% of cases, it's backwards. Thing is even when the 1-5% might be put out more by an EV (certainly possible) a lot of the talk just never seems to consider that nobody is filling their ice car on the drive overnight, or that people need to eat, drink, **** at services etc.

They've got so used to wasting 15 minutes driving to fill up, filling up, paying, and driving off that they no longer acknowledge the time it takes, it's like a bad habit, like someone biting their nails without even knowing they're doing it. Sure it's only 10-15 mins a time, but it all adds up.

Like I said earlier, it ***** me off now when I have to go and fill the petrol can for my lawnmower once a year

My fave extreme example was when I was discussing EV with an American, and he said "yes but I'd prefer to drive from Seatle to Miami in a gas car" . I had to concede, should I ever need to drive diagonally across the entire length of the third largest nation on earth then yes, iCE would be the one.

 

[Ravs van]

My fave extreme example was when I was discussing EV with an American, and he said "yes but I'd prefer to drive from Seatle to Miami in a gas car" . I had to concede, should I ever need to drive diagonally across the entire length of the third largest nation on earth then yes, iCE would be the one.

Ahh so we are all in agreement now then?
PS I think I have had discussions on that website too

 

[Uwefuchs]

What's an ICE?

 

[SmallTown]

What's an ICE?

Internal combustion engine. So a petrol or diesel basically

 

[Soutra]

I've never had to wait 45.monutes for a charger. I would say that your example is so statistically extremely as to be an outlier. When I travel back u0 north, the longest regular journey i I do, I cahreg for 20 minutes. Given that I charge in the place I'm stopping anyway the loss is not massive, time yourself next time you fill up, I coding time to drive to the petrol station and back and you would be surprised.

I have also done 2 massive journeys through Europe. And range isn't an issue because on a 2500km journey you stop anyway to rest

I think your argument setve to demonstrate one of the frustrations o have with Anti EV discussions. I get it, people are scared of change, they don't understand how EV are refuelled or how convenient it is. I understand people fear what they don't understand. However every anti EV argument I read is based on extremes now. Such as ridiculously busy chargers or ridiculously long journeys that most people simply don't do, or do so rarely it's not an issue.

I would have thought the fact you have to use such extremes, you have to create hypothetically long and complicated journeys, to say that EV don't work would.make you think "maybe they do, I have to work hard to disprove them"

As I've told you before, I did have an EV, so not scared of change. As things stand at the moment, the range of EVs is not great enough for my needs, and the charging infrastructure not extensive enough either. I sold my EV but I will buy another when these problems are resolved. But not until.

 

[SmallTown]

As I've told you before, I did have an EV, so not scared of change. As things stand at the moment, the range of EVs is not great enough for my needs, and the charging infrastructure not extensive enough either. I sold my EV but I will buy another when these problems are resolved. But not until.

I assume you do crazy distances all the time then? Fair enough.

And I'm sorry I really don't understand the infrastructure bit. I just don't see that

 

[Andy_W]

Ahh so we are all in agreement now then?
PS I think I have had discussions on that website too

I think this below should be the agreement, happy to clarify any points and alter till we get an agreed list.

Pros:
1 - 95% of people who have had many ICE cars and and at least one EV, would get an EV for their next car
2 - EV's will be less time fuelling for ~95% of people with home charging
3 - EV's will be far cheaper to fuel and run, for those who do most of their charging at home
4 - EV's set on fire less
5 - Electric motors are far more reliable than an ICE
6 - 100,000 mile or 8 year warranty on batteries
7 - Cheaper to maintain (less moving parts/ wear parts etc)
8 - Much, much, much better for tax for companies etc
9 - Queuing at chargers isn't a problem for most, as most don't really use them often
10 - Queuing at chargers isn't a problem if you know how to use a very basic app
11 - A 250 mile range car, which has lost 20% capacity, will still be 200 range, and put to good use by someone else
12 - Greener than ICE, over the cars lifetime, and will become greener as the grid gets greener, which it does each year
13 - Current battery/ charger tech meets current demand, future tech will meet future demand
14 - Most milage is commuting, most commutes are <30 miles
15 - Most time spent charging, is put to use by doing other tasks, sleeping, eating etc
16 - EV's have better tech, and are easier to integrate into driverless/ autopilot etc
17 - EV's with the better tech are safer for their users and safer for others
18 - TCO is far cheaper for most people who want cars from new to up to 3 year old
19 - EV development has led to rapid battery development, and this tech will filter through to many other devices which use batteries or could use batteries

Most of the pro's are technical and financial, and require some experience to realise

Cons:
1 - EV's probably won't yet suit those who can't charge at home or have cheap charger access
2 - People who can't use a basic charger network map are at a disadvantage
3 - People who can't do primary school level maths are at a disadvantage
4 - Some don't understand charge curves
5 - The people from 2, 3 & 4 probably block fast chargers with slow charging cars
6 - The media makes up or exaggerates EV problems to get clicks (and it works)
7 - The media is largely controlled by the right, who are generally against being green
8 - The right are in the pocket of fossil fuel companies
9 - In car sat navs/ charger selection needs to get better to help those who can't think for themselves
10 - Some ICE users don't seem to want to acknowledge the visits to the fuel station, and the time taken to drive there, fill up, pay, drive out. Lets say 10 minutes a time.
11 - Some ICE users don't acknowledge that not every ICE car has a 500 mile range, average is ~400, but most refill every ~350
12 - Some ICE users don't seem to want to acknowledge that almost every EV driver has had loads of ICE cars
13 - Some types of car don't have much EV choice at the minute, like 2 seater sports cars or big towing vehicles etc
14 - People are absolutely terrible at understanding how much range they actually need
15 - People don't understand that faster charging is largely much more important than longer range, especially if they do loads of public charging
16 - Not many EV's in many classes which are over 5,10 years old etc

Most of the cons are people problems, and will be harder to understand with little to no experience or acceptance of reality

Same/ Similar/ irrelevant:
1 - Charger network wouldn't suit if everyone was doing 3-500 mile round trips each day, but vast majority of people don't do anything like this
2 - EV's depreciated a lot recently, but this was bringing back into parity with ICE, but this is good for the second hand market, where EV's are selling faster than ICE cars
3 - If doing long trips, people tends to stop every ~200 miles for food/ drink/ toilet, regardless of fuel system
4 - Batteries will be recycled (as they're valuable), or repurposed
5 - Need to figure out a way to charge cars on street, but this can probably be the last problem to solve, which we've still probably got 5 years to sort out (almost full transition is probably a decade away)
6 - Not many battery recycling options available yet, largely as it's not necessary yet, as all the batteries are in cars, driving around and have loads of life left
7 - There will be money to be made in the future with battery recycling, so there will be plenty of options when it's needed

 

[ForssAwakens]

I think this below should be the agreement, happy to clarify any points and alter till we get an agreed list.

Pros:
1 - 95% of people who have had many ICE cars and and at least one EV, would get an EV for their next car
2 - EV's will be less time fuelling for ~95% of people with home charging
3 - EV's will be far cheaper to fuel and run, for those who do most of their charging at home
4 - EV's set on fire less
5 - Electric motors are far more reliable than an ICE
6 - 100,000 mile or 8 year warranty on batteries
7 - Cheaper to maintain (less moving parts/ wear parts etc)
8 - Much, much, much better for tax for companies etc
9 - Queuing at chargers isn't a problem for most, as most don't really use them often
10 - Queuing at chargers isn't a problem if you know how to use a very basic app
11 - A 250 mile range car, which has lost 20% capacity, will still be 200 range, and put to good use by someone else
12 - Greener than ICE, over the cars lifetime, and will become greener as the grid gets greener, which it does each year
13 - Current battery/ charger tech meets current demand, future tech will meet future demand
14 - Most milage is commuting, most commutes are <30 miles
15 - Most time spent charging, is put to use by doing other tasks, sleeping, eating etc
16 - EV's have better tech, and are easier to integrate into driverless/ autopilot etc
17 - EV's with the better tech are safer for their users and safer for others
18 - TCO is far cheaper for most people who want cars from new to up to 3 year old
19 - EV development has led to rapid battery development, and this tech will filter through to many other devices which use batteries or could use batteries

Most of the pro's are technical and financial, and require some experience to realise

Cons:
1 - EV's probably won't yet suit those who can't charge at home or have cheap charger access
2 - People who can't use a basic charger network map are at a disadvantage
3 - People who can't do primary school level maths are at a disadvantage
4 - Some don't understand charge curves
5 - The people from 2, 3 & 4 probably block fast chargers with slow charging cars
6 - The media makes up or exaggerates EV problems to get clicks (and it works)
7 - The media is largely controlled by the right, who are generally against being green
8 - The right are in the pocket of fossil fuel companies
9 - In car sat navs/ charger selection needs to get better to help those who can't think for themselves
10 - Some ICE users don't seem to want to acknowledge the visits to the fuel station, and the time taken to drive there, fill up, pay, drive out. Lets say 10 minutes a time.
11 - Some ICE users don't acknowledge that not every ICE car has a 500 mile range, average is ~400, but most refill every ~350
12 - Some ICE users don't seem to want to acknowledge that almost every EV driver has had loads of ICE cars
13 - Some types of car don't have much EV choice at the minute, like 2 seater sports cars or big towing vehicles etc
14 - People are absolutely terrible at understanding how much range they actually need
15 - People don't understand that faster charging is largely much more important than longer range, especially if they do loads of public charging
16 - Not many EV's in many classes which are over 5,10 years old etc

Most of the cons are people problems, and will be harder to understand with little to no experience or acceptance of reality

Same/ Similar/ irrelevant:
1 - Charger network wouldn't suit if everyone was doing 3-500 mile round trips each day, but vast majority of people don't do anything like this
2 - EV's depreciated a lot recently, but this was bringing back into parity with ICE, but this is good for the second hand market, where EV's are selling faster than ICE cars
3 - If doing long trips, people tends to stop every ~200 miles for food/ drink/ toilet, regardless of fuel system
4 - Batteries will be recycled (as they're valuable), or repurposed
5 - Need to figure out a way to charge cars on street, but this can probably be the last problem to solve, which we've still probably got 5 years to sort out (almost full transition is probably a decade away)
6 - Not many battery recycling options available yet, largely as it's not necessary yet, as all the batteries are in cars, driving around and have loads of life left
7 - There will be money to be made in the future with battery recycling, so there will be plenty of options when it's needed

Is that opinion, or have you researched those figures you’ve quoted

 

[SmallTown]

Con 11 was one that always got me. My old EV the Tesla model 3 performance actually had better range than the car it was directly rivalling: the BMW M3

Also the "people over estimate the amount of range they need" Yes, they do completely but I think some of this is due to ignorance of how you refuel EV and the constant bombardment of the right wing press telling them they need more range. So they can be forgiven to some extent. It's just frustrating when you expin this to them and they still keep repeating the mistrutth.

FWIW I have driven an EV for 4 years now and have actually changed cars to one with less range then my previous. Because I realised how little a thing it was. I'd rather get the car I want then go "oh that one can do 300 miles so I must get that"

 

[Andy_W]

I assume you do crazy distances all the time then? Fair enough.

And I'm sorry I really don't understand the infrastructure bit. I just don't see that

I think some seem to think that we need to have infrastructure now, for every single eventuality, when it's not the case. No EV user is saying this is covered yet either, it's years away.

They just don't get that this is a transition, which probably has another decade to go before every circumstance is met.

Every year we go on, EV's will suit more people, as the infrastructure and tech moves along.

Currently EV's will suit a hell of a lot more than people who actually have EV's, the reason they don't have EV's is that they've not learned yet, or the EV's just haven't filtered down into all the areas of the used market.

Tech and infrastructure is currently miles ahead of demand, and as long as it stays that way the problem is basically solved.

The biggest problem is going to be getting home charging to those who have no parking or street parking, who do absolutely loads of miles. This will be the last problem to solve, the last people to transition, but we're probably 5 years from needing this. Would be nice to have this now, but it's not what we need now.

Priority now is getting 350kW chargers to motorways and A-Roads and making the grid greener/ cheaper.

Could also do with some mandates to car manufacturers where the charge speed of the car needs to at least match the range. i.e 100 mile range car needs to be able to charge at 100 kW.