Looks like we couldn't afford Giles??

BoroMart said:
FFP isn't that hard to stay within. It's a 3 year window, also, that means you can go for it one year, and if it fails take your medicine for the next two by selling.

I suspect Gibson is trying to get out of that cycle, by signing young players with growth potential, selling at profits, which will massively stabilise the club. We are a selling club now, we have to accept that, but sell on our terms, at profit, and invest well, until we just have too much quality retained that we can get up. It might happen early, it might take 3-4 years. But the model will work eventually.
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Why are you so certain that it will work? Everyone is trying to do this. And our past attempts at buy low sell for a profit have failed.
 
indeedido said:
Yes and No Bruce.
MFC are nowhere near FFP issues and given last summer sales there is scope to invest big and be fFP compliant.
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I agree. As ever, if we go big but fail then we're in problems. I presume we have learned our lessons from Monk and will not get saddled with unsellable deadweights but Payero and Hoppe make me doubt that.

We're all assuming that Gibson will sanction a big push if he thinks it has a realistic chance of success but I honestly don't know what our goal as a club is in this transfer window.

I mean you could imagine a couple of prestige loans at centre forward and left back in late August, Chuba signing on and the atmosphere around the club would be very different to now.
 
Bruce said:
I agree. As ever, if we go big but fail then we're in problems. I presume we have learned our lessons from Monk and will not get saddled with unsellable deadweights but Payero and Hoppe make me doubt that.

We're all assuming that Gibson will sanction a big push if he thinks it has a realistic chance of success but I honestly don't know what our goal as a club is in this transfer window.

I mean you could imagine a couple of prestige loans at centre forward and left back in late August, Chuba signing on and the atmosphere around the club would be very different to now.
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One of the interesting things about the payero and Hoppe signings is that the fees involved are often variable when quoted.

I suspect this means that they include a lot of add ons/future sell ons rather than a single one time payment. This makes them less high risk than a Britt (or more recently Gyokeres) signing. An injury/loss of form/poor fit can set you back years. Whereas if you constantly buy low and sell on the good and the bad will often balance out.

I think high risk/high reward is out for any team that does not want to risk a Derby/Bolton/Wigan situation. You play the long game and hope a youngster/or low key signing moves you up a level.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Why are you so certain that it will work? Everyone is trying to do this. And our past attempts at buy low sell for a profit have failed.
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Because we’ve invested heavily in our talent identification and acquisition capabilities, which most other clubs haven’t done. Most other clubs pay lip service to what we are doing.

We’ve also seemingly committed to the policy without fail, again other clubs start then get enticed by some aging star and throwing money at him.

We stick to signing 18-23 year olds at less than market value with good scouting, and it will come good.
 
Bruce said:
I agree. As ever, if we go big but fail then we're in problems. I presume we have learned our lessons from Monk and will not get saddled with unsellable deadweights but Payero and Hoppe make me doubt that.
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You want to make an omelette, you gotta break some eggs first. Neither will be on big wages, we’ve sunk around 5m on them, but Payero was prior to this new philosophy.
 
BoroMart said:
FFP isn't that hard to stay within. It's a 3 year window, also, that means you can go for it one year, and if it fails take your medicine for the next two by selling.

I suspect Gibson is trying to get out of that cycle, by signing young players with growth potential, selling at profits, which will massively stabilise the club. We are a selling club now, we have to accept that, but sell on our terms, at profit, and invest well, until we just have too much quality retained that we can get up. It might happen early, it might take 3-4 years. But the model will work eventually.
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That model will work if the recruitment is strong, the academy is productive and there is lucrative demand for what we produce.
There is little to support our recruitment bringing lucrative sales in the future.
It appears this is what Gibson has chosen to do. Big gamble under Scott given his track record.
 
Ravshoutsatbeck said:
I think high risk/high reward is out for any team that does not want to risk a Derby/Bolton/Wigan situation. You play the long game and hope a youngster/or low key signing moves you up a level.
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The model we need is the model Brentford started using years ago...

2014/15 they signed Scott Hogan from Rochdale for £1m and Andre Gray from Luton for 600k.
They sold Andre Gray one season later for £12m (Burnley) and Scott Hogan two seasons later for £10m (Villa).

2015/16 they replaced Gray with Florian Jozefzoon for 450k, and brought in Romaine Sawyers (Wallsall), Daniel Bentley (Southend) and John Egan (Gillingham) on free transfers.
They sold Jozefzoon to Derby for £3m, sold Sawyers to West Brom for £3m, sold Bentley to Bristol for £2m, and sold Egan to Sheffield Utd for £4.5m.

2016/17 they signed Ollie Watkins - They paid Exeter a massive £7m - I think it was a record in the division - They sold him 3 years later for £34m.
They signed Maupay the same year for £2m from Saint Etienne - They sold him 2 years later to Brighton for £15m.
They also brought back the Brentford B team and recruited Chris Mepsham - on a free - who they later sold to Bournemouth for £14m.

2017/18 they signed Said Benrahma from Nice for £2m and two years later sold him to West Ham for £23m.
They signed Enzi Konsa from Charlton for £3m and one year later sold him to Villa for £13m.
Josh Dasilva was brought in from Arsenal U21s on a free transfer and he's still there today - valued at approx. £20m. Marcus Forss also came through Brentford B that year (sold for £3m).

Over these four years, all still in the championship, they've made very few bad buys - They're lost a mill or two here and there.... but the list above is a profit of over £110 million.

During this time period and the year after they also acquired....
Ivan Toney (bought for £5m - MV of £35m)
Bryan Mbeunmo (bought for £6m - MV of £35m)
David Raya (bought for £3m - MV of £30m)
Mathias Jensen (bought for £4m - MV of £22m)
Christian Norgaard (bought for £3m - MV of £16m)
Ethan Pinnock (bought for £3m - MV of £14m)
... and many others.
 
Can't afford giles?

I think we couldn't even afford to keep Bola who i would think, or at least hope 95% of boro fans can clearly see was a better option than Coulson at Left back at this level
 
BoroMart said:
Because we’ve invested heavily in our talent identification and acquisition capabilities, which most other clubs haven’t done. Most other clubs pay lip service to what we are doing.

We’ve also seemingly committed to the policy without fail, again other clubs start then get enticed by some aging star and throwing money at him.

We stick to signing 18-23 year olds at less than market value with good scouting, and it will come good.
Click to expand...
Why do you think other clubs aren't doing this? Surely everyone is doing it. Everyone wants youn gsters for as little money as possible, everyone wants to pay fancy **** football. We are surely fishing in a very crowded market if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors. I'm worried all that there's likely to be left is old boots and shopping trolleys. Maybes the odd sanitary product.
 
There was an interesting take on the Giles saga on the Red Alert podcast today.. I think it was Mark Drury who said Boro had a deal with Wolves was done and were confident of signing Giles with solid promises made by player and agent, to the point that they allowed other targets to be sold without concern.. then those promises were broken by Giles and agent.

So maybe it’s Giles who has stitched us up rather than the deal with Wolves not being right.
 
Ash88 said:
The model we need is the model Brentford started using years ago...

2014/15 they signed Scott Hogan from Rochdale for £1m and Andre Gray from Luton for 600k.
They sold Andre Gray one season later for £12m (Burnley) and Scott Hogan two seasons later for £10m (Villa).

2015/16 they replaced Gray with Florian Jozefzoon for 450k, and brought in Romaine Sawyers (Wallsall), Daniel Bentley (Southend) and John Egan (Gillingham) on free transfers.
They sold Jozefzoon to Derby for £3m, sold Sawyers to West Brom for £3m, sold Bentley to Bristol for £2m, and sold Egan to Sheffield Utd for £4.5m.

2016/17 they signed Ollie Watkins - They paid Exeter a massive £7m - I think it was a record in the division - They sold him 3 years later for £34m.
They signed Maupay the same year for £2m from Saint Etienne - They sold him 2 years later to Brighton for £15m.
They also brought back the Brentford B team and recruited Chris Mepsham - on a free - who they later sold to Bournemouth for £14m.

2017/18 they signed Said Benrahma from Nice for £2m and two years later sold him to West Ham for £23m.
They signed Enzi Konsa from Charlton for £3m and one year later sold him to Villa for £13m.
Josh Dasilva was brought in from Arsenal U21s on a free transfer and he's still there today - valued at approx. £20m. Marcus Forss also came through Brentford B that year (sold for £3m).

Over these four years, all still in the championship, they've made very few bad buys - They're lost a mill or two here and there.... but the list above is a profit of over £110 million.

During this time period and the year after they also acquired....
Ivan Toney (bought for £5m - MV of £35m)
Bryan Mbeunmo (bought for £6m - MV of £35m)
David Raya (bought for £3m - MV of £30m)
Mathias Jensen (bought for £4m - MV of £22m)
Christian Norgaard (bought for £3m - MV of £16m)
Ethan Pinnock (bought for £3m - MV of £14m)
... and many others.
Click to expand...
That’s an impressive list but I do think it’s easier for London clubs these days to wheel and deal above their weight.
 
Teesste said:
There was an interesting take on the Giles saga on the Red Alert podcast today.. I think it was Mark Drury who said Boro had a deal with Wolves was done and were confident of signing Giles with solid promises made by player and agent, to the point that they allowed other targets to be sold without concern.. then those promises were broken by Giles and agent.

So maybe it’s Giles who has stitched us up rather than the deal with Wolves not being right.
Click to expand...
Probably a young player being told what to do by his agent or possibly his dad.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Why do you think other clubs aren't doing this? Surely everyone is doing it. Everyone wants youn gsters for as little money as possible, everyone wants to pay fancy **** football. We are surely fishing in a very crowded market if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors. I'm worried all that there's likely to be left is old boots and shopping trolleys. Maybes the odd sanitary product.
Click to expand...
Other clubs will try but they’re doing it on the cheap, not investing in experienced talent identification staff, scouts, data analysts and a DoF.

you are right, it’s a crowded market, which is where having the best people identifying players for specific roles and a bigger department, is really important.

Another change in our philosophy is a first team that are attack based. Goalscorer sand creators are the most expensive players, by playing attacking football we end up with a lot of goal scorers that have a higher value. Which helps our buy low sell high model.
 
Ash88 said:
The model we need is the model Brentford started using years ago...

2014/15 they signed Scott Hogan from Rochdale for £1m and Andre Gray from Luton for 600k.
They sold Andre Gray one season later for £12m (Burnley) and Scott Hogan two seasons later for £10m (Villa).

2015/16 they replaced Gray with Florian Jozefzoon for 450k, and brought in Romaine Sawyers (Wallsall), Daniel Bentley (Southend) and John Egan (Gillingham) on free transfers.
They sold Jozefzoon to Derby for £3m, sold Sawyers to West Brom for £3m, sold Bentley to Bristol for £2m, and sold Egan to Sheffield Utd for £4.5m.

2016/17 they signed Ollie Watkins - They paid Exeter a massive £7m - I think it was a record in the division - They sold him 3 years later for £34m.
They signed Maupay the same year for £2m from Saint Etienne - They sold him 2 years later to Brighton for £15m.
They also brought back the Brentford B team and recruited Chris Mepsham - on a free - who they later sold to Bournemouth for £14m.

2017/18 they signed Said Benrahma from Nice for £2m and two years later sold him to West Ham for £23m.
They signed Enzi Konsa from Charlton for £3m and one year later sold him to Villa for £13m.
Josh Dasilva was brought in from Arsenal U21s on a free transfer and he's still there today - valued at approx. £20m. Marcus Forss also came through Brentford B that year (sold for £3m).

Over these four years, all still in the championship, they've made very few bad buys - They're lost a mill or two here and there.... but the list above is a profit of over £110 million.

During this time period and the year after they also acquired....
Ivan Toney (bought for £5m - MV of £35m)
Bryan Mbeunmo (bought for £6m - MV of £35m)
David Raya (bought for £3m - MV of £30m)
Mathias Jensen (bought for £4m - MV of £22m)
Christian Norgaard (bought for £3m - MV of £16m)
Ethan Pinnock (bought for £3m - MV of £14m)
... and many others.
Click to expand...
They’ve done very very well.
Brighton even better and on higher value players and higher stakes speculation by Bloom.
Virtually every club has been looking to do similar in recent times. Not everyone will succeed.

The keys as ever are the quality of the academy, the recruitment operation, the coaching calibre to bring players on and the skill in managing the transfer sales.
The one I have confidence in is Carrick and the coaching team. I’d just like them to have quality to work with. If they have quality, we can go up, stay up and be more Brighton.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
I mean here we go. Looked at the nearest club to us. I really don't think we are ahead of the curve on this.

footballleagueworld.co.uk

"Something we should and will be looking at" - Tony Mowbray provides insight into Sunderland transfer strategy

Sunderland have made a fast start to the summer transfer window but there is still a fair amount of business to be conducted.
footballleagueworld.co.uk footballleagueworld.co.uk
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We’re not ahead of the curve we’re behind the Brentford’s of this world, but we’re ahead of most other champ clubs now
 
BoroMart said:
We’re not ahead of the curve we’re behind the Brentford’s of this world, but we’re ahead of most other champ clubs now
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And Brentford will run their course like plenty of other ‘model’ clubs before them, I won’t bother doing the list.
 
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