Looks like we couldn't afford Giles??
- Thread starter 55YEARSABOROFAN
- Start date
Sooner everyone looks at the clubs accounts the better. The Tav and Spence money, what we got first year of the deals that is, would've been swallowed up in running costs. Gibbo hasn't just pocketed it.
Any transfers we bring in are staggered payments. JSL etc wudve been structured over X years.
Any tfrs we bring in are essentially us betting against the mkt now parachute pymts have stopped.
We should all be thankful Gibbo has the reins as the club runs still and well because of him and his continued commitment
Any transfers we bring in are staggered payments. JSL etc wudve been structured over X years.
Any tfrs we bring in are essentially us betting against the mkt now parachute pymts have stopped.
We should all be thankful Gibbo has the reins as the club runs still and well because of him and his continued commitment
BoroMart
Well-known member
If it was used for running costs, it would have meant that gibson didn't need to put his 1m a month in. The question is has he saved that up to now invest in one big go?
Maybe he hasn't. But running costs are increasing (same as my household)
conwaytwitty
New member
I'm sure Carrick will be delighted to know that our summer transfer budget has been swallowed up by 'running costs'.
Carrick will be 100% aware of funds avbl or not, need to sell etc. The recruitment team includes him you know...
We will see I guess by our tfr business to come.
Loans or perm. Tho loans are expensive in signing fees too
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
Steffen, Roberts, Smith, Giles, Lenihan, Clarke, Barlaser, Mowatt, Archer, Ramsey, Forss, Hoppe, Luongo, Munoz. The winter window with Wilder it was McGree, Connolly and Balogun. Warnock’s last summer saw another 14 players pitching up.
There comes a time when you have to balance the books. I would imagine a big chunk of the money raised from selling Tav and Spence had already been spent. The big problem I suppose is that a lot of it was spent pretty badly. Hence the new recruitment strategy the club has adopted.
indeedido
Well-known member
Just stop this rubbish. A number of us fully understand the Club accounts.
The Club accounts to June 23 will show a Profit from Sales of Player Registrations reflecting the sale of Spence and Tavernier. Neither had any book value, so their entire fees are profit, booked in the financial year the sales were fixed. This is very good for our FFP read.
When the fees are paid to MFC is all about Cash Flow, not Profit. We are already totally dependent on Gibson O'Neill to facilitate Cash Flow in this loss making club.
If we agreed transfers on Clarke, Hoppe, Forss and Barlaser in that financial year (to June 30th 2023) then those fees will have payment structures (which again is cash flow relevant only).
The impact of these 4 purchases on the P&L Account (from which FFP is derived) is the annual amortisation charge. If they cost a combined £9m and signed 3 year contracts then the amortisation charge for year to June 2023 would be £3m, with £3m charged to P&L in each of the following 2 seasons unless they were sold.
So purely based on transfers conducted in that financial year, then MFC will book a line of £22.5m (the fees fixed before add ons) as Profit from Sale of Player registrations. It will also have an amortisation charge of £3m for the 4 players signed, plus any amortisation associated with buying earlier players (Payero). There would be a £19.5m nett profit from Player Trading. The Accounts for some clubs explicitly show the books with and without Player Transfer dealings for clarity.
Of course it is essential that we have someone to provide funding for the losses we make outside the PL. Gibson O'Neill extend an ever larger loan every season to cover our losses. Without this facility we could not operate.
But it is equally true to say that it is Gibson's management of the club that has resulted in this massive debt, which is all to himself.
As I have said many times before, we are stuck with each other. He can't sell something with such colossal debt and only has earning potential if in the PL. He won't write the debt off (like Villa, Fulham owners continuously have). So here we are.
The only hope is that we are promoted - and stay up - so that debt can be repaid, which would mean at least Gibson may get the option of sale, rather than just eventual write off.
The overall problem with the clubs finances are years and years of spending ridiculous amounts of money on average players.
The three main ones are Britt - £15m, Fletcher - £7m and Gestede - £7m, but there's loads...
Aden Flint was signed for something like £8m and then sold for £4.5m a year later.
George Saville was signed for £8m and then sold for £2m.
Martin Braithwaite was signed for £11m (ish) and then sold for £5m.
Ryan Shotton was signed for £4m and then released on a free.
Those four very average players alone we've just lost nearly £20 million in transfer fees.
If you include that we released Britt, Fletcher and Gestede on free transfers too.... there's 7 players and a total loss of nearly £50 million.
Yes we have made some profit on players such as Traore (£8m profit) and De Roon (£6m profit), I think we made a few million on Lee Tomlin too...
But for every player we make a profit on, there's 5 or 6 where we take a loss...
Adiene Guedioura was signed for £5m and then released for free (he only played for us 6 times).
We signed Juliet De Sart for £2-3m and then released him for free when he was still in his early 20s. The list goes on and on and on.
The three main ones are Britt - £15m, Fletcher - £7m and Gestede - £7m, but there's loads...
Aden Flint was signed for something like £8m and then sold for £4.5m a year later.
George Saville was signed for £8m and then sold for £2m.
Martin Braithwaite was signed for £11m (ish) and then sold for £5m.
Ryan Shotton was signed for £4m and then released on a free.
Those four very average players alone we've just lost nearly £20 million in transfer fees.
If you include that we released Britt, Fletcher and Gestede on free transfers too.... there's 7 players and a total loss of nearly £50 million.
Yes we have made some profit on players such as Traore (£8m profit) and De Roon (£6m profit), I think we made a few million on Lee Tomlin too...
But for every player we make a profit on, there's 5 or 6 where we take a loss...
Adiene Guedioura was signed for £5m and then released for free (he only played for us 6 times).
We signed Juliet De Sart for £2-3m and then released him for free when he was still in his early 20s. The list goes on and on and on.
Mayor Goldie Wilson
Well-known member
I got told we agreed a fee with Wolves along with Luton and when Giles expressed his preference to come to us Luton blew us out of the water with a much larger wage offer. Giles camp then came back to us and asked us to match it and he would sign for us but we refused.
BoroMart
Well-known member
fYI next summers ffp calculation is the first one that will not include 3.75m Britt transfer fee and ~1.8m wages. Same for fletcher with 1.5m transfer and 1m wages. That’s 8m disappearing of our ffp next summer. That’s a 7 year weight around our neck for those two poor signing
It's crazy when you look at all the transfers like those over the last 10 years.
Those are the three main ones but there's probably close to 100 million in transfer fees and unnecessarily big wages that we've just thrown away.
Adiene Guedioura is a good example. He cost £5 million and we released him on a free; probably higher than average wages too.... He played 185 minutes in total for us.
Just internet speculation but it says online his wages in the premier league were 25k/week too, so for every 1 minute he was on the pitch... He cost us £50,000.
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret
Well-known member
Saville for 7 million.
we are like a lottery winner when we have a bit of money and blow it all on trash, then wind up bankrupt a couple of years later. We are micjael.carrol.
Notable exception is the players we bought in the premier League last time. Ended up making a small profit on them. When we went down under Southgate it took us ages to get the likes of Digard off the wages.
It would be a great shame now that we've got a decent manager and the core of a good team if all we give him is a bunch of punts.
Alwaysaborolad
Well-known member
Agree with this, he will get found out in the Premiership week in week out, Brighton tore him apart in the FA cup as did Burnley at Turf Moor, both teams targeted his side of the pitch.
He is a Championship player, and not worth 4-5m to any Championship club, there's a reason why a struggling Wolves never kept him.
Bruce
Well-known member
Sadly, yes. 2021-22 season we made a loss of £15million when all was said and done. That was covered by loans from Gibson's company.
Last (2022-23) season we will have the next income from Spence and Tav minus players we bought, loan fees etc. I suspect our wage bill probably expanded too. Probably around £0-5m loss.
To give an idea. In 2021-22 we had income of just under £27million. Our wage bill for the year was £28 million (includes both players and non-playing staff). Our income didn't even cover our wages yet alone anything else. Our "administrative costs" (that's basically all the costs like rent, rates, electricity etc) were about £5.5 million.
2022-23 our income will be about the same, player wages will be up, other wages and administrative costs will be up so probably a loss of £15-20 million. Net income from player sales in 2022-23 looks to be around £15m. So Gibson will have had to loan another £0-5million last year.
This season, as Gibson looks forward. Unless we sell Chuba it looks like virtually no income from player sales and probably around £4m in purchases so far. The routine £15m-£20m loss will have to be covered. Gibson then is looking at putting in all his allowed money just to keep us from going bankrupt.
Because of the academy and other allowances against FFP, Gibson can run us at loss of more than £12m per year without breaching the rules.
In theory, we can spend a boatload of Gibson's money on players without breaching FFP this year because of the way accounting works. Basically, if we spend £20m on Archer and give him a 4 year contract then that works out roughly equivalent to spending £5m a year on him. Gibson still has to spend that money in addition to the £15m-£20m normal loss. If we had spent 5m on Giles over 4 years then that's £1.25m/year for the next 4 years. If he spends that and we don't get promoted then that ongoing £6.25million loss per year (Archer+Giles) now weighs us down really badly. Unless we sell one or both, that loss hits us every year for 4 years. (This is what was so damaging about Britt's fee.)
Back in the day, Gibson only had to decide how much money he was willing to spend on us. Now he has to ensure that we stay within FFP limits and it is really hard to do that in the Championship if you are trying to get promoted.
BoroMart
Well-known member
FFP isn't that hard to stay within. It's a 3 year window, also, that means you can go for it one year, and if it fails take your medicine for the next two by selling.
I suspect Gibson is trying to get out of that cycle, by signing young players with growth potential, selling at profits, which will massively stabilise the club. We are a selling club now, we have to accept that, but sell on our terms, at profit, and invest well, until we just have too much quality retained that we can get up. It might happen early, it might take 3-4 years. But the model will work eventually.
indeedido
Well-known member
Yes and No Bruce.
MFC are nowhere near FFP issues and given last summer sales there is scope to invest big and be fFP compliant.
We can’t see the books for year to June 2023 yet. I don’t see a loss being made based on those sales.
If Gibson has decided he will cover no more losses then we can’t invest in quality, we will not go up and he can’t reboot.
It’s his prerogative of course, but trundling along in the Championship will not do anything but ultimately increase his loans and leave the club more underwater and less saleable.
I would be surprised if he does not invest in a squad to get promotion when he has such FFP leeway following last years sales.
He’s on a hamster wheel just now.
MFC are nowhere near FFP issues and given last summer sales there is scope to invest big and be fFP compliant.
We can’t see the books for year to June 2023 yet. I don’t see a loss being made based on those sales.
If Gibson has decided he will cover no more losses then we can’t invest in quality, we will not go up and he can’t reboot.
It’s his prerogative of course, but trundling along in the Championship will not do anything but ultimately increase his loans and leave the club more underwater and less saleable.
I would be surprised if he does not invest in a squad to get promotion when he has such FFP leeway following last years sales.
He’s on a hamster wheel just now.