Long Covid -could this be the real legacy of the pandemic

T_A_D said:
"You really don’t know much about Sunetra Gupta, do you? Go and look at her claims back in March about covid and then let me know how they are working out..... "

Go on then, I'll indulge, what were the claims?
Click to expand...

He posted some of them earlier in this thread.
 
T_A_D said:
"You really don’t know much about Sunetra Gupta, do you? Go and look at her claims back in March about covid and then let me know how they are working out..... "

Go on then, I'll indulge, what were the claims?
Click to expand...


Ok, I’ll indulge. A quick 5 minute google pulled the following -



This is a note in a Financial Times article from March, where she claimed up to half the population had already had covid and we were well on the way to herd immunity. -

‘However, the modelling by Oxford’s Evolutionary Ecology of Infectious Disease group has been challenged by other scientists. They have pointed out that the study presents possible scenarios — based on assumptions about the nature of the virus, its virulence and its arrival from China — that contradict those
supported by most epidemiologists.’

A paper written by a team of scientists led by Professor Sunetra Gupta at Oxford University published on March 24th included a range of estimates of the percentage of the UK population that has already been infected, one putting it as high as 68%.

The Oxford paper was criticised on the grounds that many of the assumptions made by Professor Gupta were “speculative” and had no “empirical justification”

London, Jul 17 (PTI) The UK population may already have developed sufficient levels of herd immunity required to prevent a feared second wave of the coronavirus pandemic in the country, notes an Oxford University study involving Indian-origin academic Professor Sunetra Gupta.

In a paper titled ‘The impact of host resistance on cumulative mortality and the threshold of herd immunity for SARS-CoV-2’, Gupta along with three other Oxford University colleagues notes that the herd immunity threshold (HIT) required to prevent a resurgence of the deadly coronavirus may have already been built up due to exposure to seasonal coronaviruses, such as the common cold.

From MARCH -
Asked what her updated estimate for the Infection Fatality Rate is, Professor Gupta says, “I think that the epidemic has largely come and is on its way out in this country ......

So which is it? Have we had herd immunity develop sufficiently already, back in March? Or do we need to let rip to reach the required levels? Geeesh make your mind up Sunetra!

You get the picture.

Her predictions have been widely criticised as having no base in science.
They have also been as far wide of the mark as the likes of Sikora (another ‘leading’ clinician who is signed up to the GBD) and Heneghan, both of whom I’ve followed throughout this because they were saying what I wanted to hear. Both of whom made bold predictions this was on its way out and done and dusted months ago, both of whom have had completely disproportionate media coverage, particularly in right wing publications.

And here is a little nugget about one of the other lead authors of the GBD -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....o-an-antibody-survey-for-sars-cov-2-67488/amp

All of that was extremely easy to find, there is plenty more stuff out there, like this -


https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...lockdown-policies-and-for-focused-protection/

That lots taken about ten minutes to find on google. Extremely easy to find credible dissenting voices critical of Guptas work and the GBD. Plenty of leading scientists and epidemiologists highly critical of them on Twitter.

I’m not getting involved anymore. Got better things to do and most of that stuff comes up very easily when looking into it. Which is why I’m surprised folk who are so happy to push the GBD haven’t already come across it.
Whatever.

And I’m not arguing the case FOR lockdown. As I’ve said many times, needs to be a serious discussion around it and alternatives:
I’m just saying the credibility and science behind the GBD has some serious questions to it and it shouldn’t be taken at face value just because it has some ‘leading’ scientists attached to it.
 
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FabioPorkpie said:
Ok, I’ll indulge. A quick 5 minute google pulled the following -



This is a note in a Financial Times article from March, where she claimed up to half the population had already had covid and we were well on the way to herd immunity. -

‘However, the modelling by Oxford’s Evolutionary Ecology of Infectious Disease group has been challenged by other scientists. They have pointed out that the study presents possible scenarios — based on assumptions about the nature of the virus, its virulence and its arrival from China — that contradict those
supported by most epidemiologists.’

A paper written by a team of scientists led by Professor Sunetra Gupta at Oxford University published on March 24th included a range of estimates of the percentage of the UK population that has already been infected, one putting it as high as 68%.

The Oxford paper was criticised on the grounds that many of the assumptions made by Professor Gupta were “speculative” and had no “empirical justification”

London, Jul 17 (PTI) The UK population may already have developed sufficient levels of herd immunity required to prevent a feared second wave of the coronavirus pandemic in the country, notes an Oxford University study involving Indian-origin academic Professor Sunetra Gupta.

In a paper titled ‘The impact of host resistance on cumulative mortality and the threshold of herd immunity for SARS-CoV-2’, Gupta along with three other Oxford University colleagues notes that the herd immunity threshold (HIT) required to prevent a resurgence of the deadly coronavirus may have already been built up due to exposure to seasonal coronaviruses, such as the common cold.

From MARCH -
Asked what her updated estimate for the Infection Fatality Rate is, Professor Gupta says, “I think that the epidemic has largely come and is on its way out in this country ......

So which is it? Have we had herd immunity develop sufficiently already, back in March? Or do we need to let rip to reach the required levels? Geeesh make your mind up Sunetra!

You get the picture.

Her predictions have been widely criticised as having no base in science.
They have also been as far wide of the mark as the likes of Sikora (another ‘leading’ clinician who is signed up to the GBD) and Heneghan, both of whom I’ve followed throughout this because they were saying what I wanted to hear. Both of whom made bold predictions this was on its way out and done and dusted months ago, both of whom have had completely disproportionate media coverage, particularly in right wing publications.

And here is a little nugget about one of the other lead authors of the GBD -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....o-an-antibody-survey-for-sars-cov-2-67488/amp

All of that was extremely easy to find, there is plenty more stuff out there, like this -


https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...lockdown-policies-and-for-focused-protection/

That lots taken about ten minutes to find on google. Extremely easy to find credible dissenting voices critical of Guptas work and the GBD. Plenty of leading scientists and epidemiologists highly critical of them on Twitter.

I’m not getting involved anymore. Got better things to do and most of that stuff comes up very easily when looking into it. Which is why I’m surprised folk who are so happy to push the GBD haven’t already come across it.
Whatever.

And I’m not arguing the case FOR lockdown. As I’ve said many times, needs to be a serious discussion around it and alternatives:
I’m just saying the credibility and science behind the GBD has some serious questions to it and it shouldn’t be taken at face value just because it has some ‘leading’ scientists attached to it.
Click to expand...


Why are you mentioning the GBD in your reply to me? I never once mentioned the GBD, haven't yet commented on it........... I'll come onto that in another post because that expert reaction is very very interesting. Yet another group of highly intelligent academics who cannot even acknowledge the existence of multiple immune responses and happily quote 8% immunity. They cannot even acknowledge there are forms of immunity? Seriously? People need to start asking why.

As for the "dodgy" antibody study by Bhattacharya - I have previously criticised that on this forum.

*Sigh* I defended Ferguson from people completely misrepresenting his work and now have to do it for Gupta (from the opposite side of the debate!). It wasn't as case of "where she claimed up to half the population had already had covid". With all of these types of papers there are assumptions (some which may be closer to the reality than others). It was a range and an estimate IF certain assumptions were the case. Yes, scientists and epidemiologists were critical, pretty normal. Why were they critical? You don't say.

You seem happy to say "Plenty of leading scientists and epidemiologists highly critical of them" and take at face value those criticisms yet also say that "the GBD has some serious questions to it and it shouldn’t be taken at face value just because it has some ‘leading’ scientists attached to it."


Back to Gupta....... I saw the press release and also desperately wanted it to be true as it was "what I wanted to hear". I suspect I was in the same boat as you at that point. I dismissed it as many scientists jumped on it and said it was nonsense. That was my failing. My failing to understand the paper, failure to understand the background.

One assumption in that paper was that (quote from https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-infections-oxford-study-immunity) if "In the most extreme scenario they estimate that if the virus had started being transmitted 38 days before the first confirmed death then 68 per cent of the UK population would have been infected by March 19."

We now know the virus was highly likely established in Europe before initially thought (waste water studies, retrospective analyses of unusual pneumonia) and I am very confident subsequent studies will confirm this. This is in contrast to Ferguson who suggested that the virus was not in circulation earlier than thought and also did not believe that we were seeing a "tip of the ice berg".

In hindsight of course we were. No one, even Ferguson would deny that now. I'm not criticising that, Ferguson stated to the parliamentary select committee that track and trace was never modeled as they didn't have enough testing. No country was going to pick up the beginnings of this. If we were actually able to test (not a criticism of government) then we'd have been picking up cases in Jan, Feb, March, maybe earlier.

Lets look at that date of 19th March because it is very interesting.........

By March 19th Gupta would have us nearing "herd immunity" in the "extreme scenario". Heneghan (who I didn't didn't come across until later and is often knocked down for being "right wing" - I really don't care about "right wing" or "left wing" in all of this. Policy comes secondary to evidence) noted that the peak of UK deaths (by date) occurred on 8th April (see link below - I couldn't access the latest NHS data for some reason but 8th was peak deaths by date from NHS sources):

1602274284376.png

This is in concurrence with other research groups, including,

https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/...hs-occurring-english-hospitals-passed-8-april

A lag of 21-28 days from infection to death (widely acknowledged, please ask if you want the links, there are going to be enough already) gives a peak infection date of ~18th March (assuming ~21 day lag, earlier if longer lag).

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-william-farrs-way-out-of-the-pandemic/

Not black and white as companies and individuals had started to implement "distancing" by that point but suggestive that "lockdown" on 23rd of March was AFTER peak infections. What stopped further progression? Immunity? Distancing measures (the harshest of which weren't introduced until 23rd March?).

Interested to hear peoples views.

Don't believe me? Chris Whitty giving evidence..... (see between 1:14 - 1:15:10 for commenting on R0 below 1, again not a criticism of Whitty, analysis done retrospectively).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzVMrMEJ_-Y

I'm glad you're a fan of Dr Campbell Fabio, he really is very good. I suggest you have a look at this if you haven't seen it.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Z6wdu1eI0&t=1392s

Seriously, have a look, even if only for the "headline" news. And then ask yourself if that 8% immunity figure (based on antibodies only, and from a while ago) which is now mindlessly trotted out by politicians and many scientists (including those in the response to the GBD you cite) is actually correct. More to come on that including John Edmund's position.

If you look at Ferguson's position and Gupta's position with hindsight then it is currently clear that one is much closer to the reality, and it isn't Ferguson's. I did always say the outcome would depend on the proportion susceptible. If people can provide evidence that we still have a large susceptible population and the virus will cause a major (please put into context with other respiratory viruses before talking about cases) then I'm all ears. I was ignorant of other forms of immunity and that was my lack of understanding.

I owe an apology to several posters who back in Feb / March (I think one left the board and I can't remember their username) I argued with very much from the side of caution. I didn't listen to their position enough despite them explaining their views and the nature of this virus.
 
FabioPorkpie said:
You really don’t know much about Sunetra Gupta, do you? Go and look at her claims back in March about covid and then let me know how they are working out.....
You really don’t know much about Bhattacharya’s ridiculed antibody survey either, do you? Or maybe you’ve just completely ignored them because it’s not what aligns with what you want to hear? You’ve clearly ignored all the concerns and questions raised by the many scientists, epidemiologists, virologists from leading universities around the world, regarding the GBD.

I’ve raised concerns and questions over the practicalities of their proposals repeatedly, as you’ve ignored. I agree with some of the things they propose, but then they are just common sense things, some of which are already in place to a degree.
I’ve posted links to other leading scientists questioning the GBD but you’ve ignored those too.
It’s not me who hasn’t researched this thing Randy, or looked at the merits and flaws of it objectively, or looked at the response to it from other leading scientists.

So if it’s all the same to you, I’ll continue to follow the scientists that show evidence and provide peer reviewed studies to back up their claims. You carry on following the scientists who are a front for far right economics and who pull in the Facebook crowd, without providing any evidence or data to back up their claims, or viable, workable solutions to their proposals.

For someone who clearly prides themselves on believing they are enlightened to what’s really going on in the world, you are completely piszing in the dark on this one I’m afraid.
I’ve given you a hint, now go and follow the rabbit and see where it takes you. Sorry to be the one to have to give you the disappointing news about your hero scientists... Actually I’m not sorry, because you still won’t see it anyway. You’ll only do the research you want, that confirms your belief.
Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Good night Randy
Click to expand...
And you don't really know much about the financial conflicts if interest that Hancock, Whitty and Valance have.
FabioPorkpie said:
Yep.
👍
This was among the criticisms I pointed out to Alvez and Randy. Zero response. As per usual.
Click to expand...
An article on sky news? As proof that all the scientists, doctors and others who signed are liars and shills?
Of course there will be those who have taken the mickey, it happens with all publicly accessible surveys etc. 😂 Clutching at straws there.

Fabio, just admit you want another hard lockdown and want to taste that sweet sweet furlough money again.

@T_A_D has just batted every curve ball you've thrown out of the park.
 
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T_A_D said:
Why are you mentioning the GBD in your reply to me? I never once mentioned the GBD, haven't yet commented on it........... I'll come onto that in another post because that expert reaction is very very interesting. Yet another group of highly intelligent academics who cannot even acknowledge the existence of multiple immune responses and happily quote 8% immunity. They cannot even acknowledge there are forms of immunity? Seriously? People need to start asking why.

As for the "dodgy" antibody study by Bhattacharya - I have previously criticised that on this forum.

*Sigh* I defended Ferguson from people completely misrepresenting his work and now have to do it for Gupta (from the opposite side of the debate!). It wasn't as case of "where she claimed up to half the population had already had covid". With all of these types of papers there are assumptions (some which may be closer to the reality than others). It was a range and an estimate IF certain assumptions were the case. Yes, scientists and epidemiologists were critical, pretty normal. Why were they critical? You don't say.

You seem happy to say "Plenty of leading scientists and epidemiologists highly critical of them" and take at face value those criticisms yet also say that "the GBD has some serious questions to it and it shouldn’t be taken at face value just because it has some ‘leading’ scientists attached to it."


Back to Gupta....... I saw the press release and also desperately wanted it to be true as it was "what I wanted to hear". I suspect I was in the same boat as you at that point. I dismissed it as many scientists jumped on it and said it was nonsense. That was my failing. My failing to understand the paper, failure to understand the background.

One assumption in that paper was that (quote from https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-infections-oxford-study-immunity) if "In the most extreme scenario they estimate that if the virus had started being transmitted 38 days before the first confirmed death then 68 per cent of the UK population would have been infected by March 19."

We now know the virus was highly likely established in Europe before initially thought (waste water studies, retrospective analyses of unusual pneumonia) and I am very confident subsequent studies will confirm this. This is in contrast to Ferguson who suggested that the virus was not in circulation earlier than thought and also did not believe that we were seeing a "tip of the ice berg".

In hindsight of course we were. No one, even Ferguson would deny that now. I'm not criticising that, Ferguson stated to the parliamentary select committee that track and trace was never modeled as they didn't have enough testing. No country was going to pick up the beginnings of this. If we were actually able to test (not a criticism of government) then we'd have been picking up cases in Jan, Feb, March, maybe earlier.

Lets look at that date of 19th March because it is very interesting.........

By March 19th Gupta would have us nearing "herd immunity" in the "extreme scenario". Heneghan (who I didn't didn't come across until later and is often knocked down for being "right wing" - I really don't care about "right wing" or "left wing" in all of this. Policy comes secondary to evidence) noted that the peak of UK deaths (by date) occurred on 8th April (see link below - I couldn't access the latest NHS data for some reason but 8th was peak deaths by date from NHS sources):

View attachment 7347

This is in concurrence with other research groups, including,

https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/...hs-occurring-english-hospitals-passed-8-april

A lag of 21-28 days from infection to death (widely acknowledged, please ask if you want the links, there are going to be enough already) gives a peak infection date of ~18th March (assuming ~21 day lag, earlier if longer lag).

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-william-farrs-way-out-of-the-pandemic/

Not black and white as companies and individuals had started to implement "distancing" by that point but suggestive that "lockdown" on 23rd of March was AFTER peak infections. What stopped further progression? Immunity? Distancing measures (the harshest of which weren't introduced until 23rd March?).

Interested to hear peoples views.

Don't believe me? Chris Whitty giving evidence..... (see between 1:14 - 1:15:10 for commenting on R0 below 1, again not a criticism of Whitty, analysis done retrospectively).


I'm glad you're a fan of Dr Campbell Fabio, he really is very good. I suggest you have a look at this if you haven't seen it.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Z6wdu1eI0&t=1392s

Seriously, have a look, even if only for the "headline" news. And then ask yourself if that 8% immunity figure (based on antibodies only, and from a while ago) which is now mindlessly trotted out by politicians and many scientists (including those in the response to the GBD you cite) is actually correct. More to come on that including John Edmund's position.

If you look at Ferguson's position and Gupta's position with hindsight then it is currently clear that one is much closer to the reality, and it isn't Ferguson's. I did always say the outcome would depend on the proportion susceptible. If people can provide evidence that we still have a large susceptible population and the virus will cause a major (please put into context with other respiratory viruses before talking about cases) then I'm all ears. I was ignorant of other forms of immunity and that was my lack of understanding.

I owe an apology to several posters who back in Feb / March (I think one left the board and I can't remember their username) I argued with very much from the side of caution. I didn't listen to their position enough despite them explaining their views and the nature of this virus.
Click to expand...

Crikey. That must have taken ages to write?
I’ve only read the first three paragraphs but I’ve got better things to do on a Friday evening than trawl through all that. I’ll do you the courtesy of reading the rest over the weekend. Not sure what Ferguson has to do with any of it, as nobody has been talking about him. At all, as far as I can see.
If you’ve written all that in defense of Gupta than I’m afraid you’ve wasted your time on me, as I have seen plenty enough of her to have made my mind up. I mean, she’s been pretty keen to get on tv and talk about her models and findings etc It’s all out there, for all to see. It’s not hidden away. It’s that which I’ve based my opinion of her credibility on.
And of course I brought up the GBD given that is what she’s in the news for at the moment.

Anyway, have a nice evening and enjoy your weekend 👍

In the meantime, the president of academy of medical sciences, which is the independent body in the UK representing the diversity of medical science today said the following -

https://acmedsci.ac.uk/more/news/navigating-covid-19-through-the-volume-of-competing-voices

Edit: @T_A_D Apologies if the above reply seems a bit curt. I hadn’t read your reply in full. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Gupta.
The ‘leading scientist’ comment was my attempt at being facetious.
I will say using Ferguson’s modelling to defend Gupta's is a bit of a non-starter for me though. It’s a bit like saying a lion isn’t that dangerous really, because at least it’s not a great white shark.
Anyway, have a good weekend, genuinely.
 
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RandySavage said:
Fabio, just admit you want another hard lockdown and want to taste that sweet sweet furlough money again.
Click to expand...

Not you again....

But nice response-you’ve covered all the criticisms of your precious GBD there and I can have no comeback to that 👍

For the record, no, I don’t want a hard lockdown.
But I do think you’ve been played by the GBD - you are EXACTLY the type of person they were targeting.
Anyway, I wish you a good weekend, genuinely.
 
FabioPorkpie said:
Not you again....

But nice response-you’ve covered all the criticisms of your precious GBD there and I can have no comeback to that 👍

For the record, no, I don’t want a hard lockdown.
But I do think you’ve been played by the GBD - you are EXACTLY the type of person they were targeting.
Anyway, I wish you a good weekend, genuinely.
Click to expand...
Played? Behave. Who do you think you are? 😂
I've been saying the things they've suggested in that report since April, even the media are starting to become more cosy to the ideas stated.
 
RandySavage said:
Played? Behave. Who do you think you are? 😂
I've been saying the things they've suggested in that report since April, even the media are starting to become more cosy to the ideas stated.
Click to expand...

Hey, we should just put you in charge of our response. You get my vote 👍
 
RandySavage said:
@T_A_D has just batted every curve ball you've thrown out of the park.
Click to expand...

What on Earth are you talking about Randy? Having just read his response fully,
@T_A_D has said plenty that I agree with. I’ve posted about T-cell immunity previously, including, I think, in direct response to T_A_D.
He hasn’t actually addressed anything I said about GBD in his post to me, (which is what I think you are insuating.) He has talked about some stuff that I’ve not claimed, such as 8% population exposure which I’ve neither claimed or believed in any post, and other bits that aren’t directly aimed at me, I think. I’ve posted links to studies suggesting much larger numbers of the population have had the virus than antibody studies show. I think I may even have enthusiastically posted a link to one of Guptas studies previously! (Before I was enlightened 😉)
He’s made some good points that I agree with.
His views and mine are far more aligned than you seem to realise.
We just clearly see differently in regards to Gupta’s work.
As you were.
 
FabioPorkpie said:
Crikey. That must have taken ages to write?
I’ve only read the first three paragraphs but I’ve got better things to do on a Friday evening than trawl through all that. I’ll do you the courtesy of reading the rest over the weekend. Not sure what Ferguson has to do with any of it, as nobody has been talking about him. At all, as far as I can see.
If you’ve written all that in defense of Gupta than I’m afraid you’ve wasted your time on me, as I have seen plenty enough of her to have made my mind up. I mean, she’s been pretty keen to get on tv and talk about her models and findings etc It’s all out there, for all to see. It’s not hidden away. It’s that which I’ve based my opinion of her credibility on.
And of course I brought up the GBD given that is what she’s in the news for at the moment.

Anyway, have a nice evening and enjoy your weekend 👍

In the meantime, the president of academy of medical sciences, which is the independent body in the UK representing the diversity of medical science today said the following -

https://acmedsci.ac.uk/more/news/navigating-covid-19-through-the-volume-of-competing-voices

Edit: @T_A_D Apologies if the above reply seems a bit curt. I hadn’t read your reply in full. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Gupta.
The ‘leading scientist’ comment was my attempt at being facetious.
I will say using Ferguson’s modelling to defend Gupta's is a bit of a non-starter for me though. It’s a bit like saying a lion isn’t that dangerous really, because at least it’s not a great white shark.
Anyway, have a good weekend, genuinely.
Click to expand...

It did. I'm fuming, genuinely fuming. I cannot believe what is going on. This is playing with people's lives and living. I've stated on another thread ..... it doesn't really affect me. It will affect many people who are not in my position.

Completely understand you're not going to read it all tonight, I'm not necessarily expecting a reply, but I will be postting more, probably in more condensed form as it really is that important. I'm only writing it now because I'm not exactly down the pub with a group of mates. Travelling up to Teesside tomorrow to see family before it becomes advised against (or illegal, who the hell knows at the moment).

Ferguson was brought up for context. It wasn't to defend Gupta. I have defended both as both have been mis-represented on this board. I am happy to debate eithers position (within my level of knowledge) but I will jump on mis-representation.

Gupta may be discussed later then. I saw her on question time recently and thought she came across terribly, but that doesn't really matter. My reference to her was with regard to her paper which I dismissed at the time, despite how much I wanted it to be true. Her position (for the UK) is currently looking like a good shout. And if people disagree then I'm happy to hear why. With data though.

Sikora? Didn't know much about him until I read his articles, glad I did, pointed me in the direction of much useful information (and on to John Campbell) that seems to be dismissed for motives that I am still unsure about.

Heneghan? Dismissed as "let it rip" guy. I will post some of his tweets from Feb/March which clearly show this is not the case. Most don't have any comments or retweets as he wasn't "known" then.
 
FabioPorkpie said:
Crikey. That must have taken ages to write?
I’ve only read the first three paragraphs but I’ve got better things to do on a Friday evening than trawl through all that. I’ll do you the courtesy of reading the rest over the weekend. Not sure what Ferguson has to do with any of it, as nobody has been talking about him. At all, as far as I can see.
If you’ve written all that in defense of Gupta than I’m afraid you’ve wasted your time on me, as I have seen plenty enough of her to have made my mind up. I mean, she’s been pretty keen to get on tv and talk about her models and findings etc It’s all out there, for all to see. It’s not hidden away. It’s that which I’ve based my opinion of her credibility on.
And of course I brought up the GBD given that is what she’s in the news for at the moment.

Anyway, have a nice evening and enjoy your weekend 👍

In the meantime, the president of academy of medical sciences, which is the independent body in the UK representing the diversity of medical science today said the following -

https://acmedsci.ac.uk/more/news/navigating-covid-19-through-the-volume-of-competing-voices

Edit: @T_A_D Apologies if the above reply seems a bit curt. I hadn’t read your reply in full. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Gupta.
The ‘leading scientist’ comment was my attempt at being facetious.
I will say using Ferguson’s modelling to defend Gupta's is a bit of a non-starter for me though. It’s a bit like saying a lion isn’t that dangerous really, because at least it’s not a great white shark.
Anyway, have a good weekend, genuinely.
Click to expand...

And yes, have a good weekend yourself (y)
 
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