Latest Kantar poll - Tories 13 points ahead

SuperStu said:
3) because of 2) it'd be as short lived as can be. Whatever the voting system Labour would lose vote share dramatically afterwards, and any and all changes would more than likely be reversed in the following parliament.
Click to expand...
No, if we were to implement PR it would be VERY unlikely that the Tories would ever be able to poll the 51% of the electorate required to reverse it. And why would any minor party ever form a coalition on the basis of effectively removing them from paraliament?
 
Laughing said:
Yup, hence the strategically placed "generally". To be honest I would have expected that from the mail, not the express. Everyday is a school day.
Click to expand...
I would have expected that from the Mail and the Express to be honest. The Express has not said a bad word against Sunak indeed I am sure the editorial staff collectively drool over his photo daily.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Is this a joke? Corbyn lost the red wall. The red wall were leavers who were spooked by Starmer going totally off piste in his 2018 conference speech and announcing that labour were now the party of remain.
Click to expand...
Labour were always the party of remain; they just didn't like admitting it in public.
 
Muttley said:
No, if we were to implement PR it would be VERY unlikely that the Tories would ever be able to poll the 51% of the electorate required to reverse it. And why would any minor party ever form a coalition on the basis of effectively removing them from paraliament?
Click to expand...

The Liberals will happily go in to coalition with the tories again. I don't know why people seem to doubt that so much now. They're obvious fellow travellers on a lot of policy and the damage has been done to the Libs brand now so what would be the difference? The seats they win now are clearly voters who don't mind they propped up a tory gov so no reason to think they'd lose those seats by propping up another.

I'm sure the tories could find other parties to work with as well.

If SNP get their independence for Scotland how confident would you be of the tories never getting 51% in what's left?
 
Unravel_Morrison said:
Labour were always the party of remain; they just didn't like admitting it in public.
Click to expand...
Privately that may have been true but the official policy of Corbyn's party once the referendum had been won and lost, was to respect the result. I am just reading Len McCluskey's book. He was heavily involved in the negotiations and decisions made by the party at that time as they chose their path on Brexit. He was also at the 2018 conference when Starmer dropped his bombshell without the knowledge of even the likes of Corbyn, O'Donnell and Abbot. When he reached this important part in his delivery he read directly from a paper in front of him because the fateful words were not even in the autocue version of his speech. Corbyn and Co were utterly shocked.
 
Unravel_Morrison said:
The Tory press are a nightmare for any progressive party that wants to get into power.

The Daily Express today is running with a headline that says that Rishi is on a mission to cut taxes, despite him having raised taxes.

The Daily Mail are very balanced in that the are running with a headline that says 'The drinks are on us' with accompanying photos of the Chancellor and PM at a brewery. They do however point out in the lines below that taxes are higher than any point since the 1950s.
Click to expand...
Somehow, the brewery seems to have neglected to tell them that the kegs they are holding are smaller than 40 litres.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Privately that may have been true but the official policy of Corbyn's party once the referendum had been won and lost, was to respect the result. I am just reading Len McCluskey's book. He was heavily involved in the negotiations and decisions made by the party at that time as they chose their path on Brexit. He was also at the 2018 conference when Starmer dropped his bombshell without the knowledge of even the likes of Corbyn, O'Donnell and Abbot. When he reached this important part in his delivery he read directly from a paper in front of him because the fateful words were not even in the autocue version of his speech. Corbyn and Co were utterly shocked.
Click to expand...
Starmer has already lost Labour one election. I fear he's about to do it again.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Privately that may have been true but the official policy of Corbyn's party once the referendum had been won and lost, was to respect the result. I am just reading Len McCluskey's book. He was heavily involved in the negotiations and decisions made by the party at that time as they chose their path on Brexit. He was also at the 2018 conference when Starmer dropped his bombshell without the knowledge of even the likes of Corbyn, O'Donnell and Abbot. When he reached this important part in his delivery he read directly from a paper in front of him because the fateful words were not even in the autocue version of his speech. Corbyn and Co were utterly shocked.
Click to expand...

It served them right. They had repeatedly maneuvered against the overwhelming wish of Labour Party voters and members who wanted a confirmatory vote, to try to deliver Brexit and a Tory Hard Brexit at that.

Does he mention how, when Starmer made his statement that remain was not ruled out, there was a moments as people took it in, then the place erupted with relief, enthusiasm and a standing ovation of approval.

McClusky and the incompetent ideologically driven dinosaurs in the Leader Of The Oppositions Office were intent on ignoring their democratic principles when it suited them on Brexit. They briefed the press - even the Sun ffs! - against agreements that had been made with Starmer and put out mixed messages to deliberately confuse the public. That was why both Remainers and Leavers alike felt alienated.

here is the footage when Starmer announced it. Nothing he said was wrong or underhand. It had privately been agreed that nothing would be ruled out. That did mean Remain had not been ruled out. Where Starmer went further than agreed was in specifically saying it. That hadn't been agreed. However Starmer knew from recent history and what was going on with McCluskey and co that they were going to continue to confuse and misrepresent the agreements made. That's why he said it and he was absolutely right.

This is how it was received. the old dinosaurs who haven't moved on from the 1970's, or even realised the EU is very different from the 1970's (you'd think the Tories shift would have been a bit of a clue), were out of step with the Party, not to mention a majority of the country as shown by every poll for 18 months, thought Brexit was a mistake.

news.sky.com

Labour conference: Sir Keir Starmer insists 'nobody is ruling out Remain as an option'

The shadow Brexit secretary's declaration brings a standing ovation from Labour members at the party's conference in Liverpool.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
Last edited:
JackG said:
I think quite a few may return to the ranks of non-voters, from whence they sprang.
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure, many will be absolutely horrified they've voted for this crap, and may now want to undo it.

But either way, it's Tories losing votes which is the most important thing. If they're short a majority, they're going to struggle to get other parties on board, after shafting them all for 10-15 years or whatever it is.
 
Lefty said:
It served them right. They had repeatedly maneuvered against the overwhelming wish of Labour Party voters and members who wanted a confirmatory vote, to try to deliver Brexit and a Tory Hard Brexit at that.
Click to expand...
Corbyn was consistently aiming for the softest of Brexits, with CU and SM.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
He consistently advocated a Customs Union/Single Market brexit.
Click to expand...

He didn't advocate anything. He didn't understand Customs Unions or very much else, had no position and no interest. As a result there was a tug of war on those below him. Milne and most of the LOTO project officers wanted Brexit, not because they wanted to deliver on the vote, but because they always wanted Brexit.

The Party overwhelmingly didn't want Brexit. Once the vote happened many felt it should happen to respect the vote, including Starmer. A number of MP's wanted it in order to save their seat.

However it was the Brexiters that didn't respect the vote, by trying to impose a version of Brexit that had never been presented to the voters. That was when Starmer came up with the Customs Union/Single Market position. It respected the vote but also respected the promises made by the Leave campaigns and on top of everything else.

The reasoned, logical position, as the lack of a plan unfiolded, as the Brexit people were being pushed in to was not necessarily one that they had been promised and as 18 months of polls had shown not one with a majority in favour of Brexit, was to put the actual Brexit deal and future position back to the people to a confirmatory vote.

Shame on anyone who, regardless of how they voted in 2016, did not hold that position and view in 2019.
 
Lefty said:
He didn't advocate anything. He didn't understand Customs Unions or very much else, had no position and no interest. As a result there was a tug of war on those below him. Milne and most of the LOTO project officers wanted Brexit, not because they wanted to deliver on the vote, but because they always wanted Brexit.

The Party overwhelmingly didn't want Brexit. Once the vote happened many felt it should happen to respect the vote, including Starmer. A number of MP's wanted it in order to save their seat.

However it was the Brexiters that didn't respect the vote, by trying to impose a version of Brexit that had never been presented to the voters. That was when Starmer came up with the Customs Union/Single Market position. It respected the vote but also respected the promises made by the Leave campaigns and on top of everything else.

The reasoned, logical position, as the lack of a plan unfiolded, as the Brexit people were being pushed in to was not necessarily one that they had been promised and as 18 months of polls had shown not one with a majority in favour of Brexit, was to put the actual Brexit deal and future position back to the people to a confirmatory vote.

Shame on anyone who, regardless of how they voted in 2016, did not hold that position and view in 2019.
Click to expand...
I suppose it might be shame on me. I know which way I voted in 2016, but I don't recognise or even understand most of your post ,the last paragraph in particular. It might be the Malbec I've just had, but I'm wondering if English is my native language.
 
Lefty said:
He didn't advocate anything. He didn't understand Customs Unions or very much else, had no position and no interest.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: did he swear at little puppy dogs too?

Lefty said:
That was when Starmer came up with the Customs Union/Single Market position.
Click to expand...

Ah so Corbyn didn't know, didn't care, wasn't capable of thought or anything else cause he's just villainous and dimwitted but also Starmer was the one who came up with the position Corbyn then talked about all through the election and shame on anyone who didn't agree with it?

Honestly Lefty sometimes it's like the whole things a pantomime with you. 🤣
 
SuperStu said:
:rolleyes: did he swear at little puppy dogs too?



Ah so Corbyn didn't know, didn't care, wasn't capable of thought or anything else cause he's just villainous and dimwitted but also Starmer was the one who came up with the position Corbyn then talked about all through the election and shame on anyone who didn't agree with it?

Honestly Lefty sometimes it's like the whole things a pantomime with you. 🤣
Click to expand...

Well, at least we have some common ground in that we both agree this is absolutely ridiculous.

Read the book.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top