Did you forget the Beeching cuts of the 60's when the Nationalised Rail Service closed 50% of all stations and 30% of lines.
Labour WILL renationalise railways!
- Thread starter MolteniArcore
- Start date
Ironops
Well-known member
That doesnt make his point wrong though does it? The Beeching cuts dont mean nationalisation is wrong
Well I suppose not but Nationalisation doesn't guarantee that services are run for the benefit of the people and the environment does it? and the Beeching cuts are an example of this.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
No, at that point the railways weren't being run for the benefit of the public and the environment. We are much more aware now of how travel, especially private cars, impacts the environment and air quality. A properly nationalised system would need to incentivise rail travel to discourage people from driving everywhere.
BoroMart
Well-known member
untrue, my German friends think it's pretty good, and having been to the UK plenty of times, they see how bad the alternative can be
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
Whereas privatisation DOES guarantee that services are definitely NOT run for the benefit of ’the people’ or the environment.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Last time it was nationalised was in the early 80s.
The rolling stock included trains with technology from the 50s. The idea of preventative maintenance to rolling stock and track was not understood, problem management wasn't understood, configuration management was in its infancy. Event Management Technology to report health of trains and track didn't exist. Basically the technology and management practices adopted at that time were not comparable to today, if you think that because it was poor in the 80s it would be poor today is a really layman and simplistic view.
There is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be run today, under public ownership, in a more efficient and effective way than it was in the early 80s or 70s. None at all.
Muttley
Well-known member
Also the Beeching cuts were at the behest of the Transport Minister one Ernest Marples who was very definitely under the influence of the "Road Lobby". Motorways were built and trucks etc. were "the future" we had a lot of ex military who could drive and needed jobs. The railways were made to operate with their hands tied behind their backs. Things like bidding for moving items had to be done at a standard price so you could send a consignment of shoes to Inverness for the same price as to Watford making it easy for the road hauliers to undercut the "low hanging fruit" and contributing to the mess our infrastructure is now.
SmallTown
Well-known member
True. I had quite a few rants last week about it
I couldn't agree more about people driving less but you only have to look at the lack of support for the High Speed rail lines that are currently being built that public support is not behind the railways.
No it doesn't any decent business will realise that having your customers and the environment at the forefront of their business model will lead to better services and ultimately improved " profits ".Oh no I have swore on FMTTM
BoroMart
Well-known member
Your postulation that if you ask 'ANY German' is untrue. Some will have a negative view, but plenty don't as I have just highlighted, my friends think its pretty decent.
SmallTown
Well-known member
Still proves my point that it’s not the panacea we think it is. But yeah, let’s get bogged down in semantics
BoroMart
Well-known member
That's about rail expansion not about running it as a nationalised industry. You are conflating two different things. There is an overwhelming support for a nationalised rail service.
60% support or strongly support, 12% oppose or strongly oppose. Happy for you to provide alternative polling that shows that people don't support nationalised rail...
Should train operating companies be brought back into public ownership?
To what extent would you support or oppose bringing the train operating companies back into public ownership?
yougov.co.uk
Political meddling you see.
Just had a thought, assuming we start Nationalising things doesn't that seem a bit insular and we are saying to the world we dont want outside investment we will run our own services. Sounds a bit like Brexit.
Anyway I must get on with some work and walk the dog.I have enjoyed the discussion UTB.
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BoroMart
Well-known member
People like to complain, that's the same in Germany as here, there are a multitude of views in Germany, your view was at best misleading and at worst inaccurate. Happy for you to provide any polling data on Germans happiness or otherwise with their railways. Otherwise it's simply heresay.
As for a panacea, nobody is claiming it to be so, no one is saying it will be perfect and resolve every issue. Simply that it will improve based on a service over profit paradigm, a reduction in profits offshoring to other countries, less complex vendor management required. As they say, you can't outsource accountability, and successive governments have failed in their accountability to provide an effective and efficient transport service through an outsourcing model. Repeatedly.
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
What, like the water and energy companies? Some of the biggest profits around. Do they put the people and the environment at the forefront of their business in order to gain the gargantuan profits they do? Do they?
The problem with nationalised industries is that they don't make a profit.
Obviously that is only a problem for the people that want to make a profit. The rest of us recognise that it would be better for a service to run that benefits end users rather than shareholders. Education, Healthcare, Fire Service, Police, road network etc don't make a profit. They are public services and the country runs better when all of those things are working well. Better infrastructure, healthier people, educated people, safe people are happier and more productive and it is better for all of the people in the economy. Train services/public transport don't have to make a profit. They have to offer something that makes all the other things we do easier which increases investment and productivity for the economy.
Obviously that is only a problem for the people that want to make a profit. The rest of us recognise that it would be better for a service to run that benefits end users rather than shareholders. Education, Healthcare, Fire Service, Police, road network etc don't make a profit. They are public services and the country runs better when all of those things are working well. Better infrastructure, healthier people, educated people, safe people are happier and more productive and it is better for all of the people in the economy. Train services/public transport don't have to make a profit. They have to offer something that makes all the other things we do easier which increases investment and productivity for the economy.
Muttley
Well-known member
A very stretched metaphor doing some heavy lifting there (yes, I know)
The premise of privatisation was that investment would be forthcoming without the need for the Government to do so. Trouble is that all we have seen is profit taking. Just because Nationalised industries were run into the ground in the 70s and 80s doesn't mean it has to happen again we do not have to repeat the same errors over and over. Just use the short sightedness as a lesson not a model.
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
About time and great news.
I will however believe it when I see it.
I will however believe it when I see it.