Labour Party finally has a credible leader again

"A lot of you on this board are in your 50s and 60s" - yep
"You've made money" - nope, which is why I'm still working
"done well for yourself" - I've done OK I suppose, through hard graft
"moved to spain" - yes, but you have absolutely no idea about the background or reasons for that
"you want your family to be looked after" - yes, and I pay for it
"I work in a public sector job where I've seen our services go to **** " - so do I, and I'm trying to do my bit to make it better

For what you want, you need a Labour government, and you're not going to get it while Momentum and Corbyn have any influence - Starmer gives that opportunity

I don't disagree with you entirely. I do think that an opposition can influence government however. I never thought Corbyn would be elected, but the numbers prior to the last election disaster were very heartening to me.
I await starmers housing policy with interest.
 
I was, and remain, a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn and the direction in which he tried to steer the party. I absolutely accept he was a divisive figure but I completely understand why he appealed to a lot of the electorate. The 2019 election was fought on unfamiliar grounds with it being pretty much all about Brexit and had it not been I expect the outcome would have been somewhat different.

That is all history now though and even though I am a Corbynite I voted for Keir Starmer because I firmly believe he is the most likely by far of the three candidates to be able to get rid of this poisonous Tory government.

Those that try to discredit Corbyn as some sort of fruitcake, terrorist sympathiser or anti-British need to give their head a shake though and stop trying to live their political life based on social media memes.
 
I was, and remain, a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn and the direction in which he tried to steer the party. I absolutely accept he was a divisive figure but I completely understand why he appealed to a lot of the electorate. The 2019 election was fought on unfamiliar grounds with it being pretty much all about Brexit and had it not been I expect the outcome would have been somewhat different.

That is all history now though and even though I am a Corbynite I voted for Keir Starmer because I firmly believe he is the most likely by far of the three candidates to be able to get rid of this poisonous Tory government.

Those that try to discredit Corbyn as some sort of fruitcake, terrorist sympathiser or anti-British need to give their head a shake though and stop trying to live their political life based on social media memes.


Wee Gord agree with every word and full stop(y)
 
"A lot of you on this board are in your 50s and 60s" - yep
"You've made money" - nope, which is why I'm still working
"done well for yourself" - I've done OK I suppose, through hard graft
"moved to spain" - yes, but you have absolutely no idea about the background or reasons for that
"you want your family to be looked after" - yes, and I pay for it
"I work in a public sector job where I've seen our services go to **** " - so do I, and I'm trying to do my bit to make it better

For what you want, you need a Labour government, and you're not going to get it while Momentum and Corbyn have any influence - Starmer gives that opportunity
Here is my list in response:

"A lot of you on this board are in your 50s and 60s" 61.
"You've made money" - Yes. I was very lucky and had a good job until we came out here in 2004, before we could take pensions. We both worked over here at the start. My wife is still self-employed over here. However our financial planning went wrong with the crisis in 2008. Mainly due to the big fall in the exchange rate. We struggled from then until 2013. Since then we have been a little more comfortable. Living in a 1 bedroom apartment. So certainly not anything palatial.
"done well for yourself" - We've done OK I suppose. I was lucky to be in the I.T. industry from it's infancy.
"moved to spain" - Yes, no kids, plus put lots of our salaries in percentage of final salary pension schemes from when we started to work.
"you want your family to be looked after" - Yes, very much so. Although we pay tax in Spain so are not paying for it.
"I work in a public sector job where I've seen our services go to **** " - I no longer work. I'm trying to do my bit to make it better here by doing lots of work for the community here.

One final thing, my elder brother has been a candidate for the Labour party in a general election in the past. He really believed that Corbyn would do well at the last election. I didn't. Not particular for policies. Just that he was an easy target to be smeared. I think that will be more difficult with Starmer. So he and his party will have more chance than at the last election. However possible electoral boundary changes might make his task an almost impossible one.
 
No a disaster how could it have been any worse

General election 2019: 'Worst night for Labour since 1935'

Rhondda's Labour candidate Chris Bryant has said it has been the "worst night for Labour since 1935".
He told BBC Wales the night was "a catastrophe", saying the party had now lost four elections in a row, as they did from 1979 to 1992.
 
No a disaster how it have been any worse

General election 2019: 'Worst night for Labour since 1935'

Rhondda's Labour candidate Chris Bryant has said it has been the "worst night for Labour since 1935".
He told BBC Wales the night was "a catastrophe", saying the party had now lost four elections in a row, as they did from 1979 to 1992.

If you read the post again I was speaking about his term of office where we changed direction in a good way IMO. Yes the election was a disaster but for many reasons not just Corbyn.
 
I wasn't trying to have a go at you Spanish guys by the way. :D
It's just my own response to characterisations of Corbyn supporters being viewed as the looney left with a characterisation of my own.
 
Comment section of The Times today ....

Starmer needs to colour in his blank canvas

The new Labour leader has many political strengths but must overcome his caution and dullness to win public trust
Sir Keir Starmer’s acceptance speech, put out as a video on Saturday, was recorded against the backdrop of plain white shutters. No books or paintings that might have revealed something about his personality or his politics were visible. It was an appropriate end to a leadership campaign in which he remained studiously neutral: between left and right, evolution and revolution, Hampstead and Hull. Now, though, the new Labour leader has to fill in the colours and having won such a decisive victory over Rebecca Long-Bailey, the candidate of the left, he has a clear mandate to paint a picture designed to appeal to voters rather than just party members. One shadow cabinet minister says: “He has to have a visual and symbolic break with the Corbyn years.”

The country urgently needs a credible opposition. When the government is giving itself unprecedented powers to deal with the coronavirus pandemic and the economy teeters on the brink, it is more important than ever for ministers to be properly held to account. Sir Keir has the advantage that it is at least possible to imagine him standing on the steps of No 10. As a former director of public prosecutions, he already looks like a serious contender for power in a way that neither Jeremy Corbyn nor Ed Miliband ever did.

He may not have Boris Johnson’s swashbuckling charisma or rhetorical talent but he has a reputation for competence and a quiet political skill. When he was shadow Brexit secretary he showed a grasp of detail and an ability to build coalitions across party lines. Having practised at the Bar, he is used to forensically analysing a case and prosecuting an argument. Like a QC assembling his team of barristers before a trial, he seems to be choosing his shadow cabinet on the basis of intelligence and competence rather than ideology. A Labour Party represented by Rachel Reeves, Anneliese Dodds, David Lammy and Lisa Nandy already looks very different to — and more pragmatic than — one fronted by John McDonnell, Richard Burgon, Barry Gardiner and Diane Abbott. And by bringing back Mr Miliband, Sir Keir seems to be glossing over the Corbyn era.

Some Tory MPs are urging the prime minister to invite the Labour leader to join a government of national unity to oversee the coronavirus crisis. It would be a mistake for Sir Keir to accept such an offer. His most urgent task is to establish an independent identity in the minds of the voters. As Iain Duncan Smith said when he was elected Tory leader in 2001, political reputations are made, or broken, in the first 100 days. The pandemic may make it harder for the opposition to cut through to the electorate but it also gives Sir Keir the chance to demonstrate that he is reasonable and rational. If he gets the tone right, he can prove himself willing to work in the national interest, supporting the government where appropriate while also highlighting specific mistakes that have been made.

The Labour leader should not be afraid to differentiate himself from Mr Johnson but he also needs to distance himself from Mr Corbyn. His party has suffered four successive election defeats and it will be heading for another if it carries on down the same disastrous political path. Having won control of the ruling national executive committee along with the leadership, Sir Keir should be able to oust Jennie Formby, the general secretary appointed by Mr Corbyn. He must also assert his independence from Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary, who has done so much to drive Labour into a left-wing cul-de-sac. As one moderate MP puts it: “Unity isn’t the exam question. It’s about direction.”

Sir Keir’s immediate apology to the Jewish community for Labour’s antisemitism and his promise to “take personal responsibility for tearing this poisonous growth out by its roots” was a welcome indication that he is ready to turn the page on the Corbyn era.

His choice of top team is another positive sign. The voters will no longer need to wonder whether the leader of the opposition is more likely to side with Britain’s enemies than with the country’s allies. Ms Nandy, the shadow foreign secretary, was excoriating about Mr Corbyn’s attitude to Russia when I interviewed her recently. “In foreign policy I think we got it really badly wrong,” she told me. “Our job has always been to stand with working people across the world, not with the dictators that oppress them.”

Ms Dodds, the shadow chancellor, is unlikely describe her hobby as fomenting the overthrow of capitalism, as her Marxist predecessor did. Interviewed by the Today programme yesterday, she chose Gordon Brown rather than John McDonnell as her role model, and insisted: “It’s necessary to make sure that taxpayers’ money is spent wisely”.

Prudence may enjoy a comeback under Sir Keir. “He has advantages which neither Ed Miliband nor Jeremy Corbyn had in that he is seen as being credible and competent,” says one Labour source. “His weaknesses are that he is also seen as incredibly cautious, uncharismatic and quite boring. He mustn’t sacrifice competence and credibility to be interesting, but he needs to build on those strengths to advocate change.”

There is also likely to be less class war of the sort favoured by the public schoolboy Stalinists around Mr Corbyn.

Claire Ainsley, tipped as Sir Keir’s head of policy, argues in her book The New Working Class that traditional social identities are breaking down and the skilled jobs in heavy industry have given way to low-paid ones in call centres and shops, or as cleaners and carers. According to her analysis, almost half of the electorate is now part of this new working class, and these voters are much more diverse than traditional blue-collar workers. As the country emerges from the coronavirus emergency, winning them over, rather than trying to recreate Labour’s old electoral coalition, could be the key to its recovery.

The pandemic gives Sir Keir the excuse to abandon the commitment he made during the leadership contest to stick to much of his party’s last manifesto and instead shape a forward-thinking Labour agenda. “Coronavirus gives him a get-out on the policy stuff,” says a shadow cabinet minister. “This is going to fundamentally change the nature of our society so the policy challenges have been transformed.” Everything is up in the air. All the old political certainties have been obliterated. The Conservative Party is nationalising the railways, subsidising wages, wrapping itself in the NHS and spending taxpayers’ money as if there is no tomorrow. For Labour and its new leader that is a risk but it is also an opportunity.
 
Comment section of The Times today ....

Starmer needs to colour in his blank canvas

The new Labour leader has many political strengths but must overcome his caution and dullness to win public trust
Sir Keir Starmer’s acceptance speech, put out as a video on Saturday, was recorded against the backdrop of plain white shutters. No books or paintings that might have revealed something about his personality or his politics were visible. It was an appropriate end to a leadership campaign in which he remained studiously neutral: between left and right, evolution and revolution, Hampstead and Hull. Now, though, the new Labour leader has to fill in the colours and having won such a decisive victory over Rebecca Long-Bailey, the candidate of the left, he has a clear mandate to paint a picture designed to appeal to voters rather than just party members. One shadow cabinet minister says: “He has to have a visual and symbolic break with the Corbyn years.”

The country urgently needs a credible opposition. When the government is giving itself unprecedented powers to deal with the coronavirus pandemic and the economy teeters on the brink, it is more important than ever for ministers to be properly held to account. Sir Keir has the advantage that it is at least possible to imagine him standing on the steps of No 10. As a former director of public prosecutions, he already looks like a serious contender for power in a way that neither Jeremy Corbyn nor Ed Miliband ever did.

He may not have Boris Johnson’s swashbuckling charisma or rhetorical talent but he has a reputation for competence and a quiet political skill. When he was shadow Brexit secretary he showed a grasp of detail and an ability to build coalitions across party lines. Having practised at the Bar, he is used to forensically analysing a case and prosecuting an argument. Like a QC assembling his team of barristers before a trial, he seems to be choosing his shadow cabinet on the basis of intelligence and competence rather than ideology. A Labour Party represented by Rachel Reeves, Anneliese Dodds, David Lammy and Lisa Nandy already looks very different to — and more pragmatic than — one fronted by John McDonnell, Richard Burgon, Barry Gardiner and Diane Abbott. And by bringing back Mr Miliband, Sir Keir seems to be glossing over the Corbyn era.

Some Tory MPs are urging the prime minister to invite the Labour leader to join a government of national unity to oversee the coronavirus crisis. It would be a mistake for Sir Keir to accept such an offer. His most urgent task is to establish an independent identity in the minds of the voters. As Iain Duncan Smith said when he was elected Tory leader in 2001, political reputations are made, or broken, in the first 100 days. The pandemic may make it harder for the opposition to cut through to the electorate but it also gives Sir Keir the chance to demonstrate that he is reasonable and rational. If he gets the tone right, he can prove himself willing to work in the national interest, supporting the government where appropriate while also highlighting specific mistakes that have been made.

The Labour leader should not be afraid to differentiate himself from Mr Johnson but he also needs to distance himself from Mr Corbyn. His party has suffered four successive election defeats and it will be heading for another if it carries on down the same disastrous political path. Having won control of the ruling national executive committee along with the leadership, Sir Keir should be able to oust Jennie Formby, the general secretary appointed by Mr Corbyn. He must also assert his independence from Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary, who has done so much to drive Labour into a left-wing cul-de-sac. As one moderate MP puts it: “Unity isn’t the exam question. It’s about direction.”

Sir Keir’s immediate apology to the Jewish community for Labour’s antisemitism and his promise to “take personal responsibility for tearing this poisonous growth out by its roots” was a welcome indication that he is ready to turn the page on the Corbyn era.

His choice of top team is another positive sign. The voters will no longer need to wonder whether the leader of the opposition is more likely to side with Britain’s enemies than with the country’s allies. Ms Nandy, the shadow foreign secretary, was excoriating about Mr Corbyn’s attitude to Russia when I interviewed her recently. “In foreign policy I think we got it really badly wrong,” she told me. “Our job has always been to stand with working people across the world, not with the dictators that oppress them.”

Ms Dodds, the shadow chancellor, is unlikely describe her hobby as fomenting the overthrow of capitalism, as her Marxist predecessor did. Interviewed by the Today programme yesterday, she chose Gordon Brown rather than John McDonnell as her role model, and insisted: “It’s necessary to make sure that taxpayers’ money is spent wisely”.

Prudence may enjoy a comeback under Sir Keir. “He has advantages which neither Ed Miliband nor Jeremy Corbyn had in that he is seen as being credible and competent,” says one Labour source. “His weaknesses are that he is also seen as incredibly cautious, uncharismatic and quite boring. He mustn’t sacrifice competence and credibility to be interesting, but he needs to build on those strengths to advocate change.”

There is also likely to be less class war of the sort favoured by the public schoolboy Stalinists around Mr Corbyn.

Claire Ainsley, tipped as Sir Keir’s head of policy, argues in her book The New Working Class that traditional social identities are breaking down and the skilled jobs in heavy industry have given way to low-paid ones in call centres and shops, or as cleaners and carers. According to her analysis, almost half of the electorate is now part of this new working class, and these voters are much more diverse than traditional blue-collar workers. As the country emerges from the coronavirus emergency, winning them over, rather than trying to recreate Labour’s old electoral coalition, could be the key to its recovery.

The pandemic gives Sir Keir the excuse to abandon the commitment he made during the leadership contest to stick to much of his party’s last manifesto and instead shape a forward-thinking Labour agenda. “Coronavirus gives him a get-out on the policy stuff,” says a shadow cabinet minister. “This is going to fundamentally change the nature of our society so the policy challenges have been transformed.” Everything is up in the air. All the old political certainties have been obliterated. The Conservative Party is nationalising the railways, subsidising wages, wrapping itself in the NHS and spending taxpayers’ money as if there is no tomorrow. For Labour and its new leader that is a risk but it is also an opportunity.
Ta for that. A good read.
 
I liked Corbyn and what he stood for. Credibility is very much in the eye of the beholder, though I accept lots of folks didn't find him credible. A reflection on them I think.
Not necessarily. I just couldn't see Corbyn running a country, at all. A sixth form break room maybe but not a country.
 
The most important part of the contest is the fact that he has control over the NEC.
Corbynites and elements of Momentum believed they would win the NEC and through that hold, to a certain extent, him to ransom.
Beyond the present situation it's all to play for. The Tories will consider that with their majority things will just return to "normal"
The stronger possibility is that won't happen politically for them.
It's an existential event we're going through. What comes after is not really predictable.
 
A man comes along and offers us lot and our types a much better life. Education, Homes, NHS, Jobs, Fair Tax, Increased protection at work, more holiday with pay, more bank holidays, Respect and Dignity, he is rejected by the electorate mainly because he sought a peaceful political solution to the conflicts around the world, one of course on our own doorstep. And also because he made it clear that those earning the big money and profits would have to pay their way proportionate to the rest of us, hence the media attacks and wholesale rejections by Murdoch, Blair and the establishment.

The little 'man' in the street believed it, cos that's the conditioning and the education and the rules on the street..

A new bloke comes in, his a Sir, knighted by the queen, (like Galahad or Lancelot) in his work he is a QC (queens council) Like his mentor Blair, and he lives a privileged life amongst the glitterati down in London. His bankrolled by Murdoch (like blair) and gets the backing of blair et al, do you really think his going to make life easier and safer and with greater opportunity for the little 'man' in the street ? - wake the fook up!.

"do you really think his going to make life easier and safer and with greater opportunity for the little 'man' in the street"

Well he's got more chance than Corbyn has of doing that, because he's electable
 
I might get slayed for this but here goes....

I'm a long-term Labour Party member, though not really active in terms of attending meetings etc. I voted for Corbyn as leader and came to regret it. Though I broadly share his values and aims, he was completely ineffective in terms of leadership skills. I also had a lot of sympathy for him through his disgraceful hounding by the right wing press and their allies, deliberately confusing criticism of Israeli policy with anti-Semitism - he was never anti-Semitic.

However, in the world we live in, they are going to throw this **** at any left-leaning leader and he just didn't handle it. It built and built to such a size that it became fact in the minds of voters and he never really tackled it at all. Similarly, he took an age to make decisions and steer policy, and the public were left to make their own minds up - and when you leave a big gap, people rarely fill it with positive stuff. He was indecisive and anything meaningful took an age.

In addition - and I can't speak for the country as a whole - I did a few gigs for the party, so met a lot of people active in Momentum and they were almost exclusively really hard left. I know some who are paid-up members of the Marxist/Communist Party. They were ramshackle and highly disorganised. I did one gig, looked out and thought, "I'm a member but if you lot knocked on my door I'd tell you to burger off".

These were not credible people to be out campaigning, representing the party but they were the group who backed him and kept him in power. They were absolutely vile to anyone on social media who didn't 100% agree with every single thing they said - and went in en masse. If you think left-leaning posters can get a bit rough on here some days, you've seen nothing. It was just bullying on a grand scale and was awful to watch. I confess, I mostly kept my counsel.

Lastly, I'd love to be an idealist (I still think I mostly am) but the fact is we live in a country whose people are pretty conservative by nature. They don't like radical change, especially towards the left. Now, you can shout at them from stage left that they're wrong all you like and at every election, they'll keep voting tory from now till kingdom come. Or you can moderate slightly and try and win them over. Without their votes, we are sunk.
 
Not necessarily. I just couldn't see Corbyn running a country, at all. A sixth form break room maybe but not a country.
The problem I have with that kind of statement is that I couldn’t see Johnson running the country either, still can’t too be honest, I know he’s ill but I can’t take him seriously as a PM.
 
I might get slayed for this but here goes....

I'm a long-term Labour Party member, though not really active in terms of attending meetings etc. I voted for Corbyn as leader and came to regret it. Though I broadly share his values and aims, he was completely ineffective in terms of leadership skills. I also had a lot of sympathy for him through his disgraceful hounding by the right wing press and their allies, deliberately confusing criticism of Israeli policy with anti-Semitism - he was never anti-Semitic.

However, in the world we live in, they are going to throw this **** at any left-leaning leader and he just didn't handle it. It built and built to such a size that it became fact in the minds of voters and he never really tackled it at all. Similarly, he took an age to make decisions and steer policy, and the public were left to make their own minds up - and when you leave a big gap, people rarely fill it with positive stuff. He was indecisive and anything meaningful took an age.

In addition - and I can't speak for the country as a whole - I did a few gigs for the party, so met a lot of people active in Momentum and they were almost exclusively really hard left. I know some who are paid-up members of the Marxist/Communist Party. They were ramshackle and highly disorganised. I did one gig, looked out and thought, "I'm a member but if you lot knocked on my door I'd tell you to burger off".

These were not credible people to be out campaigning, representing the party but they were the group who backed him and kept him in power. They were absolutely vile to anyone on social media who didn't 100% agree with every single thing they said - and went in en masse. If you think left-leaning posters can get a bit rough on here some days, you've seen nothing. It was just bullying on a grand scale and was awful to watch. I confess, I mostly kept my counsel.

Lastly, I'd love to be an idealist (I still think I mostly am) but the fact is we live in a country whose people are pretty conservative by nature. They don't like radical change, especially towards the left. Now, you can shout at them from stage left that they're wrong all you like and at every election, they'll keep voting tory from now till kingdom come. Or you can moderate slightly and try and win them over. Without their votes, we are sunk.
I agree.
 
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