uncle_rico
Well-known member
Not a good luck for a club what wants to be sustainable.
Our whole ethos now appears to be selling our prize asset each season and then hoping to find the next one.
Kieran Scott
- Thread starter MFCJ
- Start date
Our whole ethos now appears to be selling our prize asset each season and then hoping to find the next one.
indeedido
Well-known member
From the academy - that's where Norwich's sales came.
The figures are not misleading they are absolutely accurate.
Players we bought to get promoted under Karanka - and then even the paltry sum spent in 2016-17 - washed their collective faces. I can do the same exercise there too.
Ramirez, Espinosa, Traore, de Roon, Bamford profits covered the losses on the other players over Karanka's reign.
Norwich did violently yo-yo in his time. Top of Championship then absolutely rock bottom relegation with pitiful PL points tallies twice (21 and 22).
I do accept that some players can get you up, will not be good enough for the PL and may not show much profit on relegation.
I also accept that some of those who were released free had performed a role for them - Pukki being the obvious one.
But if "the model" is buy cheap, develop, sell for profit, reinvest, then Scott factually made a profit on just 3 players out of 43 he signed on permanent contracts.
If ever a bloke has made a name off one player then it is him with Buendia.
TheWolfman
Well-known member
Isnt it like us going up getting 100+ mil in the bank and then releasing rogers, dieng, engel, latte all on frees because they arent needed in the prem. On paper it looks like they are failed signings but they would have been part of a squad that got promoted.
Its a very misleading and simple way of looking at his signings imo.
This obviously isnt reality and is never going to happen.
Its a very misleading and simple way of looking at his signings imo.
This obviously isnt reality and is never going to happen.
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Mayor Goldie Wilson
Well-known member
Is this the same Kieran Scott that assembled last seasons team?
newyddion
Well-known member
Fry? Hackney? Howson? Jones? Crooks? Akpom?
Mayor Goldie Wilson
Well-known member
Lets be honest, only Hackney, Howson and Akpom were key players last season from them. Fry only made 5 appearances from mid January onwards. And Hackney and Akpom only became first team players last season too.
I mostly agree with you on your opinion of Scott being unproven at best to run the footballing side of a club but I thought it worth pointing out that a player's buy and sell fee do not necessarily indicate success or value. The best example on that list would be Pukki who they made no money on but undoubtedly provided great value. If you sign a player, get the best years out of them and then sell them for a loss later in their career then that was still a good signing. It's much harder to quantify but ideally you'd do this analysis using peak value instead of sale price.
I don't have any faith that he will do well with his strategy with us. For a start I don't think Gibson will leave him alone to implement a strategy anyway. His first major decision was hiring Wilder and he was so inappropriately wrong for the supposed strategy we are going for that I completely question either his judgement or his authority because if he made the decision it was a terrible one and if he didn't then why is he even here? If Carrick leaves I wouldn't be surprised to see Gibson appoint another hoofball merchant like Allardyce and completely dispel any myth about continuity and strategy.
indeedido
Well-known member
I do specifically mention Pukki.
I agree players add value beyond transactional profit, but I am sick of hearing about this model of buy cheap/develop/ sell for big profit/reinvest.
Scott has no track record of success with that.
That is indisputable.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Indeedido
Scott Joined us in early September 2021 not October 2022 - makes quite a different to the analysis - Norwich 2021/22 was not mainly him. While he was at Norwich they were promoted twice what is that worth?
His first Boro transfer window was January 2022
Balogun on loan - now worth £35m -
Connelly on loan - 4 goals this season for Hull, looking like a top half team.
McGree - now Aussie National Team regular, worth more than we paid.
Summer 2022
Steffan on loan - so/so, but not poor
Giles -on loan - most assists in the Championship last season - success
Lenihan - OK last season, for free
Muniz - poor, flopp
Mowatt - so/so to possible flopp
Smith - so/so
Clarke - injured nearly all season - hard to judge
Roberts - so/so - Barnsley paying his salary now certainly, get our money back
Forss - certainly worth what we paid - 10 goals last season
Jan 2023
Archer - Value doubled at Boro - scored a goal ever other game - success
Ramsey - same as Archer
Barlaser - so/so (at best)
OK the loan signings were temporary the success is only for a limited period, but the loan signings got us in the play offs and increased our crowds by at least 3,000 a game.
I don't know if Scott has been involved in bringing in £35m in fees for Spence, Tav and Akpom. For Spence, Forest gave us a payment in Jan 2022 as well as Spurs fee in July 2022. We have also received fees for Bola, Ikpenzu, Payero in 2022 and 2023 and it looks like we will get a sizeable fee if Swansea sell Gordon.In same period we have spent around £20m? in fees i.e about half.
We still should be mid table with the team we currently have, if they are not playing as a team or we are not getting the best out of them - Whose fault is that?
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indeedido
Well-known member
Not sure what you are trying to say here Red.
He joined us Oct 21 officially, by which time the Summer 2021 window was closed and he had presided over that Transfer Window for Norwich for season 2021-22.
What I posted is an absolutely accurate record of his time there.
I didn't go into a financial assessment of what Scott has done at Boro because there is no way to do so, only Boyd Munce has gone yet.
It is hilarious that you try and assign credit to Scott for signing Balogun and Connolly who were disastrous for us, because Balogun is now worth money and Connolly has scored the odd goal.
The loan record improved with Archer and Ramsey, that is without question.
I purposefully did not focus on Scott's loan record at Norwich, mainly looking at permanent signings. 43 in 5 seasons.
The value of McGree is unknown, he hasn't been sold or even fees discussed. He can't even get into the team.
Boyd Munce came, farted and left.
Forss has been the best signing for me - and most likely to be worth more than he cost. Good move by Carrick to play him wide and get 10 goals.
Hoppe has been a disaster.
Clarke a disappointment - albeit very unlucky.
Barlaser has been poor.
I think those 6 would struggle to wash their collective faces and more significantly only Forss and McGree are serious starting contenders.
This summer is far too early to be definitive about, but Christ the signs don't look encouraging on any of the permanents.
Norwich made a big loss on the 43 players Scott signed at Norwich. They made a profit overall because they also sold players signed before his time and players that came through the academy that he had nothing to do with.
My points stand:
He is not qualified to be "Sporting Director".
His record at Norwich in recruitment is poor. He dines out on Buendia.
Give me Carrick as manager over Scott as "Sporting Director" all day every day.
Giles wilder signing, archer and ramsey the ex villa coach, the rest I would say Scott
Scrug
Well-known member
Was he?!
I don’t get this furore over Lenihan, I’ve seen him get caught out numerous times. Whenever someone runs at him he’s all at sea. Just didn’t get noticed last season because we were winning.
Sergio
Well-known member
I seen plenty of occasions where he put his body on the line and got us out of trouble. I also think he was the reason Fry played so well last season, now Lenihans performances are dipping so are Fry's
Redwurzel
Well-known member
"He joined us in Oct 22" I copied this direct from your post. I suspect now it is a typo, but it is there.
Part of Scott's job is identify future talent and to some extent at Boro he has done this. It often takes time for those young players to develop. Balogun, Archer, Giles and Ramsey are all examples of players who definitely have in 2022/23. I do think McGree, Forss will also. If the Boro management team choses not to play them that is not in Scott's control but many fans on here think they should play. They play for their countries on a regular basis. I will add Hoppe to Muniz in the failure column I did forget about him. That leaves 6 to 2 in favour of identfying successes. The others are all too early to judge or are so/sos or were minor recruits. To me Scott's tenure at Boro has not been a failure so far. Of course under Scott we are not as good as Brentford or Brighton with regards recruiting and there is room to improve. Thre is also an issue of turning loans into signings. In some ways Giles, Archer and Ramsey did actually too well in 2023 and were much more attractive to EPL clubs to purchase, who we can't compete with.
Developing players for two promotions surely has to be judged more of a success than a failure at Norwich. Financially Norwich in October 2021 must have been in a stronger financial position then when Scott arrived. Pukki is often quoted as a superb find by neutral commentators. Players age and lose value that is nothing to do with recruitment staff. How Norwich managed his contract since August 2021 again was nothing to do with Scott, but reflects badly in the analysis presented. On August 2nd 2021, Scott had agreed to move to Boro, so I doubt a lot of the Norwich 2021/22 signings were fully his responsibility.
Middlesbrough set to appoint Norwich recruiter Kieran Scott as new head of football
Middlesbrough have been impressed with Kieran Scotts vision for the playing side of the club and he is set to join the Teesiders at the end of the summer, having helped Norwich build two promotion teams
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SilentProf
Well-known member
Danks may have done some of the leg work for Archer and Ramsey but we don’t know who approached who. Scott and the scouting team would have been well aware of them both and could easily have approached Danks just to make contact and talk them into coming. No coach can push through transfers without the sign off of the manager, Scott and the scouting team.
Simply red
Well-known member
Scott has said he does not find the players , he has put a new team in that find the players , the outcome goes in front of the panel of Scott , Carrick , Bauser , who say yes or no . Which then gets put to SG to agree to sign it off and go with it , or not .
My view , as I have read it , I may be wrong .
Sounds it doesn't do much then for a lot of money
SilentProf
Well-known member
There’s a scouting team who may produce a report on the odd player the panel ask them to look at but their day to day job other than looking at upcoming opponents is to scour the stats and clips and bring lists of players meeting the criteria they have been set to the panel for approval. My point is that Danks isn’t on the panel but he may have been asked for his opinion and to make contact to convince them to come here. He may have even suggested them in the first place but to suggest he was solely responsible for those players coming here is wrong.
newyddion
Well-known member
Keiron Scott is the sporting director.. he brought in Wilder then Carrick and Danks and Woodgate..
Chris Jones is head of scouting (brought in by Scott 19th September 2022) along with scouts Jamie Benson (Nov 22’) and Lee Jones (Apr 23’). Colin Chamber is another scout who joined July 2019
Keiron Scott
“For me, the key area for a Director of Football is the ins and outs of player transfers,” “You’ve got to look at the squad and be able to control what the future looks like.
“You’ve got players coming in from the Academy and you’ve got to make sure the path stays clear for them, and then you’ve also got your sales and purchases. You’re trying to put square pegs in square holes all the time, whether that’s an internal player or an external player that you’re recruiting.”
He explained where he comes in in the recruitment process.
“In terms of signing a player, my role really comes in right at the end, and that’s the deal,” he said. “Of course, I need to see the players and agree they’re right for the club and that the manager is on board, but the shortlisting and scouting, and the early part of the work, is done by the recruitment team underneath.