Keir Starmers speech

100%. The Labour centrists made it clear over the last 5 years there's nothing they won't do to ensure we never have a socialist government.

Stu, You were one of the posters that debated strongly with me before (perfectly reasonably) over Corbyn, that my view was wrong. I think yesterday, Starmer vindicated my view had merit and has switched Labour to move in that direction, he stated many of the points I posted, clearly time will tell if it proves effective, but do you now agree with Starmer and what he said or are you one of the dyed in the wool socialists who staunchly disagree with Labours current approach (which is your democratic right obviously). If so, how do you think those with the Corbyn views of Britain can seriously ever win power?
 
Stu, You were one of the posters that debated strongly with me before (perfectly reasonably) over Corbyn, that my view was wrong. I think yesterday, Starmer vindicated my view had merit and has switched Labour to move in that direction, he stated many of the points I posted, clearly time will tell if it proves effective, but do you now agree with Starmer and what he said or do you remain one of the die in the wool socialists who staunchly disagree with Labours current approach (which is your democratic right obviously). If so, how do you think those with the Corbyn views of Britain can seriously ever win power?

Coluka, you have spent a long time calling Jeremy Corbyn an idiot and a waste of space, a Marxist etc. That is inflammatory and while some left leaning people like myself have accepted that is now consigned to history, there was a huge level of support for Jeremy Corbyn and still remains huge support for many of the policies under his leadership. It's very similar to when you complain that Brexiteers are called thick / racists etc and perhaps you need to recognise that?

I've come to accept that the party needs to appeal to more centrists and under Keir Starmer the party is starting to appeal to them, something that should be very troubling for the Tories, Make no mistake though, this isn't a move towards New Labour territory. Despite what some will try to tell you, Starmer is still left-leaning and has strong beliefs in policies based in the ideology of the left. If I were a betting man I would guess the manifesto for the next election won't actually be too far removed from the last couple of manifestos.
 
Coluka, you have spent a long time calling Jeremy Corbyn an idiot and a waste of space, a Marxist etc. That is inflammatory and while some left leaning people like myself have accepted that is now consigned to history, there was a huge level of support for Jeremy Corbyn and still remains huge support for many of the policies under his leadership. It's very similar to when you complain that Brexiteers are called thick / racists etc and perhaps you need to recognise that?

I've come to accept that the party needs to appeal to more centrists and under Keir Starmer the party is starting to appeal to them, something that should be very troubling for the Tories, Make no mistake though, this isn't a move towards New Labour territory. Despite what some will try to tell you, Starmer is still left-leaning and has strong beliefs in policies based in the ideology of the left. If I were a betting man I would guess the manifesto for the next election won't actually be too far removed from the last couple of manifestos.

Firstly I was coming in peace to stu not trying to be inflammatory, I hoped my phrasing showed that. I stand by Corbyn being an idiot and a foolhardy Marxist. The majority of the British public chose not to support him for a variety of reason. If you feel my view of Corbyn was inflammatory, I make no apologies for saying so. He in my view was THE biggest single reason why Labour were unelectable (I actually voted for Labour btw). I firmly believe he cost Labour the election, not policy per se (although it was clearly considered unaffordable), not Brexit, not the media, it was imho, Corbyn himself, how he came across, how he interviewed, he was and proved to be woeful. The vote in 2017 had more to do with Theresa Mays ineptness rather than Corbyn’s popularity in my view. Charisma plays a part in winning elections whether you accept it or not. Starmer recognises you have to claim the centre ground, In the last 56 years, only Blair and Wilson have won an election for labour, that is a quite telling statistic.
 
I know, it makes me feel grubby, but patriotism and nationalism are not the same thing.
Once you start appealing to "patriotism" its a slippery slope - appealing to the "we`re all in this together" - jingoism in place of solid tangible policies.
Those without a sustainable income. Parents who cant aford their kids clothes. Homeless people. They dont want flag - waving or marketing "patriotism", they want a front door key, access to a decent job and food on the table. You cant eat a flag or live under one.
 
Firstly I was coming in peace to stu not trying to be inflammatory, I hoped my phrasing showed that. I stand by Corbyn being an idiot and a foolhardy Marxist. The majority of the British public chose not to support him for a variety of reason. If you feel my view of Corbyn was inflammatory, I make no apologies for saying so. He in my view was THE biggest single reason why Labour were unelectable (I actually voted for Labour btw). I firmly believe he cost Labour the election, not policy per se (although it was clearly considered unaffordable), not Brexit, not the media, it was imho, Corbyn himself, how he came across, how he interviewed, he was and proved to be woeful. The vote in 2017 had more to do with Theresa Mays ineptness rather than Corbyn’s popularity in my view. Charisma plays a part in winning elections whether you accept it or not. Starmer recognises you have to claim the centre ground, In the last 56 years, only Blair and Wilson have won an election for labour, that is a quite telling statistic.

Just to clarify Coluka, I wasn't having a dig at you at all, despite us having different views on some things you're still one of the best posters on this board IMHO so please don't think I was having a pop at you. I was simply trying to say that the inflammatory language is akin to that used against Brexiteers (thick / racists / knuckleheads etc) and Remainers (snowflakes / losers / remoaners / melts) and it doesn't add anything to the debate. Whether you like it or not, JC had a very large following and it wasn't just to do with an inept Tory party under Theresa May, he changed the political landscape. People were talking about hopes, dreams, a just and fair society rather than the utter chaos and of the uncaring Tory party. Sadly it wasn't quite enough to get by in 2017 and 2019 was a mess because of Brexit, but you can't dimiss the large numbers of people who wanted that, and continue to do so. He has dragged the centre ground a little to the left.

Additionally, the Marxist comments don't help as it's what the ridiculous tabloids used as a tool to criticise, as if he was some sort of far left Russian stooge (oh, the irony when you look at the Tory party and their questionable donors and Russian links). He wasn't and the majority of the manifesto was in line with the social democtratic Scandinavian countries rather than the hard left communism the rags sadly had some of the more gullible people believing.
 
Just to clarify Coluka, I wasn't having a dig at you at all, despite us having different views on some things you're still one of the best posters on this board IMHO so please don't think I was having a pop at you. I was simply trying to say that the inflammatory language is akin to that used against Brexiteers (thick / racists / knuckleheads etc) and Remainers (snowflakes / losers / remoaners / melts) and it doesn't add anything to the debate. Whether you like it or not, JC had a very large following and it wasn't just to do with an inept Tory party under Theresa May, he changed the political landscape. People were talking about hopes, dreams, a just and fair society rather than the utter chaos and of the uncaring Tory party. Sadly it wasn't quite enough to get by in 2017 and 2019 was a mess because of Brexit, but you can't dimiss the large numbers of people who wanted that, and continue to do so. He has dragged the centre ground a little to the left.

Additionally, the Marxist comments don't help as it's what the ridiculous tabloids used as a tool to criticise, as if he was some sort of far left Russian stooge (oh, the irony when you look at the Tory party and their questionable donors and Russian links). He wasn't and the majority of the manifesto was in line with the social democtratic Scandinavian countries rather than the hard left communism the rags sadly had some of the more gullible people believing.

I did appreciate you were not having a pop at me and were merely debating my comments 👍

Corbyn has openly stated how he admired Marx, taken on board his readings and openly stated he was a great economist. I consider him to be supportive of the Marxist views. The fact some rags kept restating it is neither here nor there, I don’t recall Corbyn himself taking action against those reports.

I agree with you on the Tory party and their questionable donors and links to dubious regimes btw. Corbyn did not change the political landscape in my view, i think he just benefitted from it and those who had similar views had a voice where they previously were not heard. The Tory government did more to move some people to vote Labour than Corbyn ever did in 2017 imho. We will have to agree to differ on that. Ultimately he lost and Starmer himself stated Labour supporters and the party had to look at itself for the reasons why. He was 100% correct.

Elections are won and lost in the centre ground and unless you win that over, people will plump for the devil they know. I said yesterday that Starmers speech was statesmanlike and the best since Blair in 1997. Starmer’s approach and handling of power along with a sensible and deliverable manifesto that is perceived as credible will deliver power, coupled with the abject failure of this government. Labour policies wont massively change I agree, how they are presented, costed, and made credible will. In order to lead, you have to have people who like and respect you to follow you and your vision. Starmer so far answers questions Corbyn dodged them or answered questions that were not put to him and lots of people seemed to have found him awkward and untrustworthy to govern. As you say he is history, but nevertheless a section of our society supported him and will they support Starmer and accept his approach or will the party in fighting continue In the background. Personally, I hope Starmer gets everyone rallying behind his new and refreshing approach..
 
Last edited:
I did appreciate you were not having a pop at me and were merely debating my comments 👍

Corbyn has openly stated how he admired Marx, taken on board his readings and openly stated he was a great economist. I consider him to be supportive of the Marxist views. The fact some rags kept restating it is neither here nor there, I don’t recall Corbyn himself taking action against those reports.

I agree with you on the Tory party and their questionable donors and links to dubious regimes btw. Corbyn did not change the political landscape in my view, i think he just benefitted from it and those who had similar views had a voice where they previously were not heard. The Tory government did more to move some people to vote Labour than Corbyn ever did in 2017 imho. We will have to agree to differ on that. Ultimately he lost and Starmer himself stated Labour supporters and the party had to look at itself for the reasons why. He was 100% correct.

Elections are won and lost in the centre ground and unless you win that over, people will plump for the devil they know. I said yesterday that Starmers speech was statesmanlike and the best since Blair in 2017. Starmer’s approach and handling of power along with a sensible and deliverable manifesto that is perceived as credible will deliver power, coupled with the abject failure of this government. Labour policies wont massively change I agree, how they are presented, costed, and made credible will. In order to lead, you have to have people who like and respect you to follow you and your vision. Starmer so far answers questions Corbyn dodged them or answered questions that were not put to him and lots of people seemed to have found him awkward and untrustworthy to govern. As you say he is history, but nevertheless a section of our society supported him and will they support Starmer and accept his approach or will the party in fighting continue In the background. Personally, I hope Starmer gets everyone rallying behind his new and refreshing approach..
Morning Col:
Just one question regards your "centrist" "middle ground" assertion -
Atlee`s Government was elected by a landslide on the most comprehensive Socialist Manifesto in Labour history:
Nationalisation of;
Railways
British Ports
Gas
Electricity
Water
Power Distribution
The Mines
Creation of the National Health Service
The building of 100,000 new Local Authority Homes in 5 years
Introduction of the Dock Labour Scheme
Guaranteed Pension in retirement.
Introduction of Family Allowance and a system of Social Security to protect the vulnerable and poorest in our society.

Do we not face those issues today?
 
Now then r00fie1. That may be the case. However we had just come out of a world war where industry and infrastructure had been destroyed, shut down and people endured great hardship, loss of life. Times were very different to now. Humans generally do not like too much change in their everyday lives. (I appreciate we are at war with a virus and lives have been lost, but times are different, people are different, I don’t think you can compare 1945 to now).

Those issues are and always will be issues and political approach will always be questioned whoever is in power. Climate change will affect issues like water supply, energy production, transport, infrastructure, mining. I am a centrist with left leanings and Labour is generally my home. My views are more about gaining power than policy and there is no getting away from the fact most leaders have to be charismatic and appeal as an individual to a majority of voters. Unfortunately many people are turned off by politics and vote for people that they like on telly or touch a chord with a turn of phrase, some are sheep and vote for who their parents traditionally have. Some will vote for policies that affect them directly rather than the country as a whole. If peoples lives are good they are not bothered about change sadly. I think this pandemic will shift the voting of the British people come the next election. All Starmer needs to do is carry on letting the Tories doing as they are and carefully picking his battles wisely.
 
Morning Col.

Apologies for the ensuing wall of text, but I've seen this late and there's already been a bit of back and forth I want to join in on.

do you now agree with Starmer and what he said or are you one of the dyed in the wool socialists who staunchly disagree with Labours current approach (which is your democratic right obviously)

I am still a socialist. Losing general elections hasn't changed that, and the Labour party dropping socialism won't change that. It's still the best way to organise services that are universal and needed by society IMHO, and I think deep down it's most people's opinions even if they deny it. You see a lot of push back against nationalisation policies but I have never in my life seen anyone actually support privatising services like the fire brigade or the police.

If so, how do you think those with the Corbyn views of Britain can seriously ever win power?

Honestly, I don't think socialists can win power now in Britain. However I don't think it was a fait accompli. The opportunity was there. But the left have lost any influence in the Labour party and I can't see the right being complacent enough to ever let them back in. Whenever Starmer's time as leader does come to an end, there'll be no right wing Labour MPs nominating left wing candidates for leader "to widen the debate" as there was in 2015.

I think in hindsight the left should have grabbed the Labour party with a lot more confidence and made long term changes to the party. Letting CLPs select (and deselect) their own parliamentary candidates would have been a game changer. It'd basically cement a left wing, socialist body of MPs in the party, large enough to make a difference. Corbyn in my view completely bottled it in this regard. Scared off by headlines about purges. I obviously won't ever vote tory but I can admire the cojones on someone like Boris, who had a minority gov at the time, just giving 20 odd of his MPs the boot.

Another change I'd have made (not in hindsight, as I said it on here at the time) is to argue back against the allegations made against Corbyn/the left. You can't just constantly denigrate yourself and apologise and grovel and expect anyone to respect you or think the best of you. The Labour party is not institutionally antisemitic and it never was. Corbyn himself wasn't an antisemite. Again compare it to how the tories always approach thing, there's a million examples - Cummings driving round during covid, the party not kicking the MP accused of rape/assault, the hostile environment/windrush, Boris not bothering with subjecting himself to an interview with Andrew Neil on the BBC. Anything they ever do that people disagree with, big or small, they never apologise. They're shrewd enough to know that apologising gets you nothing in politics. It's not the same as a real life argument with your wife or something, where "least said, quickest mended" applies. In this business, apologising is just agreeing and amplifying. You saw the same thing with Ed Miliband and the financial crisis. Once he started apologising and accepting that the crash was Labour's fault and all down to Labour spending he never recovered from it. It was still the main thing being flung at him in the UKPGE in 2015. Same with Nick Clegg - almost immediately in 2010 he put out an apology for going back on the Lib Dem tuition fees pledge. It did him no favours. The Lib Dems still haven't recovered from that blow now. Clegg should have been going on TV putting the blame for that squarely on his coalition partners.

not policy per se (although it was clearly considered unaffordable), not Brexit, not the media, it was imho, Corbyn himself, how he came across, how he interviewed, he was and proved to be woeful.

This I don't agree with. I just don't see how you can separate it out. Obviously I am well aware that Corbyn got an extreme negative reaction from lots of people, and I'm not saying they didn't hate him or that this wasn't a big reason. But it's not like all the people that hate Corbyn knew him personally. They weren't all having pints with him and knocking about together. Their perception of Corbyn comes from the media. And it's measurable. I've seen the graphs charting the number of hit-pieces about Corbyn in newspapers alongside the graphs charting his approval ratings. Yes the reporting on Labour leaders is always negative, and yes it was always negative about Corbyn but in 2018 it jumped massively.

Make no mistake though, this isn't a move towards New Labour territory. Despite what some will try to tell you, Starmer is still left-leaning and has strong beliefs in policies based in the ideology of the left. If I were a betting man I would guess the manifesto for the next election won't actually be too far removed from the last couple of manifestos.

WeeGord, maybe you'll be right and I hope you are. I don't see what it's based on though, other than just wishful thinking. Historically the Labour party just can't be trusted to be as left wing as it presents itself. And at the moment it's not presenting itself as being very left wing at all. To my knowledge there has never been a Labour government that has suddenly swung to the left in it's policies and actions after winning an election. So if Starmer does somehow end up in number 10 I really won't be surprised to get something very very reminiscent of New Labour.

Firstly I was coming in peace to stu not trying to be inflammatory

Likewise, of course. (y)

Corbyn has openly stated how he admired Marx, taken on board his readings and openly stated he was a great economist.

Marx absolutely was a great mind and economist.

I said yesterday that Starmers speech was statesmanlike and the best since Blair in 2017.

Freudian slip perhaps? ;) I think yesterday you said Blair in 1997 but maybe somewhere in your subconscious mind you do hold a secret admiration for Corbyn's 2017 "we are many, they are few" performances.

Starmer so far answers questions Corbyn dodged them

I'm not sure this is as true as it might feel. More the shine of someone new being in the hot-seat. He was getting asked on Sky over the weekend what the "new leadership" actually meant, other than anti-semitism not being an issue anymore. He ummed and ahhhed and eventually said it's to do with anti-semitism. Similarly on Andrew Marr over the weekend he couldn't really answer any questions about what the government should be doing about the furlough scheme and eventually fell back on his stock answer that Labour will support whatever the PM decides to do.

I think I might have hit a word count limit, it's not letting me use the quote function any more. :LOL:
 
Last edited:
Elections are won and lost in the centre ground and unless you win that over, people will plump for the devil they know.

Starmer’s approach and handling of power along with a sensible and deliverable manifesto that is perceived as credible will deliver power, coupled with the abject failure of this government.

The last point I was going to make was that I do think there's a bit of egg counting going on at the minute with Starmer. He's won nothing yet. And while his personal polling ratings are higher than Boris', the party is still behind in voting intention polls. Maybe Starmer's figures will always stay the same, and maybe he'll drag the Labour party's up to match him - but I wouldn't say that's guaranteed. And it's worth remembering that from July to December 2017 Corbyn's Labour were consistently ahead in the polls. Then, like Starmer's polling now, it was overall meaningless as it was right after an election with no way to force a new election in the near future.

There's a moment now where it does feel like there's obvious abject failure in government. But before the next UKPGE, the likelihood IMO is that the pandemic will be over and done with, the Brexit transition period will be over and done with, and it's possible the tories will be the ones to have a fresh new leader everyones raving about. So I wouldn't write them off now at all.

Add to that, the Labour party could gain 100 seats at the next election and still wouldn't have a majority. If they gain 125 seats they'd have their majority but it'll be wafer thin. We're talking about unbelievable electoral performances to achieve a parliamentary situation that is very difficult to do anything with. It's part of the reason I say this:

Historically the Labour party just can't be trusted to be as left wing as it presents itself. And at the moment it's not presenting itself as being very left wing at all. To my knowledge there has never been a Labour government that has suddenly swung to the left in it's policies and actions after winning an election. So if Starmer does somehow end up in number 10 I really won't be surprised to get something very very reminiscent of New Labour.

Does anyone really expect to see Labour finally, after 15 years of losing elections, finally get themselves in to power in 2024 on a mandate of "I'll do everything Boris does, but forensically and competent" and then suddenly pivot to transformational left wing reforms? Especially if they're in a position of it only taking a handful of rebels to vote those reforms down? This in a party where something like 85% of the MPs hated Corbyn/the left enough to attempt a coup the morning after the Brexit vote - i.e. the tories first real moment of weakness since Cameron became leader in 2005? To me, it's just not realistically going to happen.
 
Stu 👍

I appreciate your response and obviously respect your thought and reasoning. 2017 was a slip that I corrected before your post, but clearly not quickly enough 😉 Yes, I meant 1997 as you rightly picked up on. I can assure you my admiration of Corbyn is as strong now as it was in 2017, or any other year during his leadership :D. I do worry that continued in fighting between the left and right within the party may resurface at some point and thus derail Labours chances. I hope everyone can rally behind Starmer for now and wrestle power from the Tories and let him govern. I think Corbynism (if there ever was such a thing) should be left in the past and everyone focusses on winning power first and foremost. Once again, thanks for replying, I appreciate you taking the time out to do so. I do like to reflect on the thoughts of others and contrary to what a few people may think some things do resonate with me and give me food for thought.
 
I'm one of these weirdos who believes that socialism is more of a mental attitude than about forcible policy.
Affordable housing, health care, equality and all the other things we're told we can't afford are affordable if you have the will to do so.
Paying your fair share of tax is seen as a punishment and something to be avoided currently. With a socialist attitude you understand the difference it can make to others, even if you don't have cause to use the services it funds. Socialism shouldn't preclude entrepreneurs or small businesses, it in fact needs them as an essential part of a better society.

That's spot on, and unfortunately is what Labour will be pushed away from doing in order to get their foot in the door by those claiming to be in the centre but are in fact supporters of maintaining the right of centre status quo so long as they're doing ok with it.
 
I do worry that continued in fighting between the left and right within the party may resurface at some point and thus derail Labours chances.

I can maybe put your mind at ease on this point Col. From my viewpoint, the left have been utterly routed. The in fighting will of course continue - as it always has and always will while the Labour party exists - but there's next to no chance of it derailing the party. The left have no fighting voices in any positions of influence and no sympathetic platforms to be heard from. It'll all be done behind closed doors in CLPs and won't be big news in the way it was under Corbyn.

E.g. you'll never get a coordinated glut of shadow cabinet resignations demanding Starmer step down - simply because he won't make the error Corbyn did of trying to offer an olive branch and include the left in his shadow cabinets.

There won't be any leadership challenges because they'd need 40 Labour MPs to back such a challenge and there just isn't that many socialist Labour MPs. Again, Corbyn bottled it when he had the chance to make changes to the makeup of the party.

There won't be constant media stories against Starmer after party meetings etc, cause the newspapers just won't be interested in getting anonymous quotes from the likes of Diane Abbott or Richard Burgon.
 
The last point I was going to make was that I do think there's a bit of egg counting going on at the minute with Starmer. He's won nothing yet. And while his personal polling ratings are higher than Boris', the party is still behind in voting intention polls. Maybe Starmer's figures will always stay the same, and maybe he'll drag the Labour party's up to match him - but I wouldn't say that's guaranteed. And it's worth remembering that from July to December 2017 Corbyn's Labour were consistently ahead in the polls. Then, like Starmer's polling now, it was overall meaningless as it was right after an election with no way to force a new election in the near future.

There's a moment now where it does feel like there's obvious abject failure in government. But before the next UKPGE, the likelihood IMO is that the pandemic will be over and done with, the Brexit transition period will be over and done with, and it's possible the tories will be the ones to have a fresh new leader everyones raving about. So I wouldn't write them off now at all.

Add to that, the Labour party could gain 100 seats at the next election and still wouldn't have a majority. If they gain 125 seats they'd have their majority but it'll be wafer thin. We're talking about unbelievable electoral performances to achieve a parliamentary situation that is very difficult to do anything with. It's part of the reason I say this:



Does anyone really expect to see Labour finally, after 15 years of losing elections, finally get themselves in to power in 2024 on a mandate of "I'll do everything Boris does, but forensically and competent" and then suddenly pivot to transformational left wing reforms? Especially if they're in a position of it only taking a handful of rebels to vote those reforms down? This in a party where something like 85% of the MPs hated Corbyn/the left enough to attempt a coup the morning after the Brexit vote - i.e. the tories first real moment of weakness since Cameron became leader in 2005? To me, it's just not realistically going to happen.

I totally agree that Starmer has a long way to go and the election, whenever it comes, is far from certain victory. He is doing all the right things laying the ghost of Corbyn to rest as far as he can. Currently the Tories are shooting themselves in the foot almost daily. However, I agree Johnson will be disposed of as soon as Brexit is done and the pandemic in decline (most likely following vaccination). Johnson will be hung out to dry and blamed along with his Mr Burns like sidekick. They will have a different wolf in sheeps clothing leading them promising the world and denigrating Starmer and Labour.

However, I do think providing Starmer and the front bench carry on as they are, provide realistic, costed, affordable and achievable promises in their manifesto. Continue to answer questions head on, be honest and open and challenge government forensically on the right issues at the right time, success will come. Much water will flow under the bridge before the next election. The biggest fear I have in Starmer being unsuccessful does not come from the Tories, it comes from within.
 
Not looking like he'll get my vote. Nothing on evictions. Will wait to see if there's anything in the manifesto or if it's just soft Tory.
It's a political spectrum, he isn't at the extreme left, he isn't at the extreme right like Cummings gang of rogues. He is balanced and pragmatic, that is what this country needs right now. Blair was largely the same, and on domestic policy, public services and economic growth for all, there really isn't a better time than his first 8 years. I think Starmer is cut from that cloth, but maybe less indebted to a warmongering american president.
 
"As well as anger, I feel frustration that every Labour Party spokesperson is a shadow. Shadow Education. Shadow Health. Shadow Chancellor. Shadow Foreign. Until we come out of the shadows, this party can’t change anything"

Great line.

 
He is balanced and pragmatic, that is what this country needs right now.

If you're a left wing/socialist person, there's not a lot of appeal in a sequence of governments that goes: Tories get in and reform to the right, Labour centrists get in and keep things the same, Tories get it and reform to the right, Labour centrists get in and keep things the same, ad infinitum.
 
Back
Top