Anton_Berg
Well-known member
When football fans do politics,,,
100%. The Labour centrists made it clear over the last 5 years there's nothing they won't do to ensure we never have a socialist government.
Stu, You were one of the posters that debated strongly with me before (perfectly reasonably) over Corbyn, that my view was wrong. I think yesterday, Starmer vindicated my view had merit and has switched Labour to move in that direction, he stated many of the points I posted, clearly time will tell if it proves effective, but do you now agree with Starmer and what he said or do you remain one of the die in the wool socialists who staunchly disagree with Labours current approach (which is your democratic right obviously). If so, how do you think those with the Corbyn views of Britain can seriously ever win power?
Coluka, you have spent a long time calling Jeremy Corbyn an idiot and a waste of space, a Marxist etc. That is inflammatory and while some left leaning people like myself have accepted that is now consigned to history, there was a huge level of support for Jeremy Corbyn and still remains huge support for many of the policies under his leadership. It's very similar to when you complain that Brexiteers are called thick / racists etc and perhaps you need to recognise that?
I've come to accept that the party needs to appeal to more centrists and under Keir Starmer the party is starting to appeal to them, something that should be very troubling for the Tories, Make no mistake though, this isn't a move towards New Labour territory. Despite what some will try to tell you, Starmer is still left-leaning and has strong beliefs in policies based in the ideology of the left. If I were a betting man I would guess the manifesto for the next election won't actually be too far removed from the last couple of manifestos.
Once you start appealing to "patriotism" its a slippery slope - appealing to the "we`re all in this together" - jingoism in place of solid tangible policies.I know, it makes me feel grubby, but patriotism and nationalism are not the same thing.
Firstly I was coming in peace to stu not trying to be inflammatory, I hoped my phrasing showed that. I stand by Corbyn being an idiot and a foolhardy Marxist. The majority of the British public chose not to support him for a variety of reason. If you feel my view of Corbyn was inflammatory, I make no apologies for saying so. He in my view was THE biggest single reason why Labour were unelectable (I actually voted for Labour btw). I firmly believe he cost Labour the election, not policy per se (although it was clearly considered unaffordable), not Brexit, not the media, it was imho, Corbyn himself, how he came across, how he interviewed, he was and proved to be woeful. The vote in 2017 had more to do with Theresa Mays ineptness rather than Corbyn’s popularity in my view. Charisma plays a part in winning elections whether you accept it or not. Starmer recognises you have to claim the centre ground, In the last 56 years, only Blair and Wilson have won an election for labour, that is a quite telling statistic.
Just to clarify Coluka, I wasn't having a dig at you at all, despite us having different views on some things you're still one of the best posters on this board IMHO so please don't think I was having a pop at you. I was simply trying to say that the inflammatory language is akin to that used against Brexiteers (thick / racists / knuckleheads etc) and Remainers (snowflakes / losers / remoaners / melts) and it doesn't add anything to the debate. Whether you like it or not, JC had a very large following and it wasn't just to do with an inept Tory party under Theresa May, he changed the political landscape. People were talking about hopes, dreams, a just and fair society rather than the utter chaos and of the uncaring Tory party. Sadly it wasn't quite enough to get by in 2017 and 2019 was a mess because of Brexit, but you can't dimiss the large numbers of people who wanted that, and continue to do so. He has dragged the centre ground a little to the left.
Additionally, the Marxist comments don't help as it's what the ridiculous tabloids used as a tool to criticise, as if he was some sort of far left Russian stooge (oh, the irony when you look at the Tory party and their questionable donors and Russian links). He wasn't and the majority of the manifesto was in line with the social democtratic Scandinavian countries rather than the hard left communism the rags sadly had some of the more gullible people believing.
Morning Col:I did appreciate you were not having a pop at me and were merely debating my comments
Corbyn has openly stated how he admired Marx, taken on board his readings and openly stated he was a great economist. I consider him to be supportive of the Marxist views. The fact some rags kept restating it is neither here nor there, I don’t recall Corbyn himself taking action against those reports.
I agree with you on the Tory party and their questionable donors and links to dubious regimes btw. Corbyn did not change the political landscape in my view, i think he just benefitted from it and those who had similar views had a voice where they previously were not heard. The Tory government did more to move some people to vote Labour than Corbyn ever did in 2017 imho. We will have to agree to differ on that. Ultimately he lost and Starmer himself stated Labour supporters and the party had to look at itself for the reasons why. He was 100% correct.
Elections are won and lost in the centre ground and unless you win that over, people will plump for the devil they know. I said yesterday that Starmers speech was statesmanlike and the best since Blair in 2017. Starmer’s approach and handling of power along with a sensible and deliverable manifesto that is perceived as credible will deliver power, coupled with the abject failure of this government. Labour policies wont massively change I agree, how they are presented, costed, and made credible will. In order to lead, you have to have people who like and respect you to follow you and your vision. Starmer so far answers questions Corbyn dodged them or answered questions that were not put to him and lots of people seemed to have found him awkward and untrustworthy to govern. As you say he is history, but nevertheless a section of our society supported him and will they support Starmer and accept his approach or will the party in fighting continue In the background. Personally, I hope Starmer gets everyone rallying behind his new and refreshing approach..
do you now agree with Starmer and what he said or are you one of the dyed in the wool socialists who staunchly disagree with Labours current approach (which is your democratic right obviously)
If so, how do you think those with the Corbyn views of Britain can seriously ever win power?
not policy per se (although it was clearly considered unaffordable), not Brexit, not the media, it was imho, Corbyn himself, how he came across, how he interviewed, he was and proved to be woeful.
Make no mistake though, this isn't a move towards New Labour territory. Despite what some will try to tell you, Starmer is still left-leaning and has strong beliefs in policies based in the ideology of the left. If I were a betting man I would guess the manifesto for the next election won't actually be too far removed from the last couple of manifestos.
Firstly I was coming in peace to stu not trying to be inflammatory
Corbyn has openly stated how he admired Marx, taken on board his readings and openly stated he was a great economist.
I said yesterday that Starmers speech was statesmanlike and the best since Blair in 2017.
Starmer so far answers questions Corbyn dodged them
Elections are won and lost in the centre ground and unless you win that over, people will plump for the devil they know.
Starmer’s approach and handling of power along with a sensible and deliverable manifesto that is perceived as credible will deliver power, coupled with the abject failure of this government.
Historically the Labour party just can't be trusted to be as left wing as it presents itself. And at the moment it's not presenting itself as being very left wing at all. To my knowledge there has never been a Labour government that has suddenly swung to the left in it's policies and actions after winning an election. So if Starmer does somehow end up in number 10 I really won't be surprised to get something very very reminiscent of New Labour.
When football fans do politics,,,
I'm one of these weirdos who believes that socialism is more of a mental attitude than about forcible policy.
Affordable housing, health care, equality and all the other things we're told we can't afford are affordable if you have the will to do so.
Paying your fair share of tax is seen as a punishment and something to be avoided currently. With a socialist attitude you understand the difference it can make to others, even if you don't have cause to use the services it funds. Socialism shouldn't preclude entrepreneurs or small businesses, it in fact needs them as an essential part of a better society.
I do worry that continued in fighting between the left and right within the party may resurface at some point and thus derail Labours chances.
Once again, thanks for replying, I appreciate you taking the time out to do so.
The last point I was going to make was that I do think there's a bit of egg counting going on at the minute with Starmer. He's won nothing yet. And while his personal polling ratings are higher than Boris', the party is still behind in voting intention polls. Maybe Starmer's figures will always stay the same, and maybe he'll drag the Labour party's up to match him - but I wouldn't say that's guaranteed. And it's worth remembering that from July to December 2017 Corbyn's Labour were consistently ahead in the polls. Then, like Starmer's polling now, it was overall meaningless as it was right after an election with no way to force a new election in the near future.
There's a moment now where it does feel like there's obvious abject failure in government. But before the next UKPGE, the likelihood IMO is that the pandemic will be over and done with, the Brexit transition period will be over and done with, and it's possible the tories will be the ones to have a fresh new leader everyones raving about. So I wouldn't write them off now at all.
Add to that, the Labour party could gain 100 seats at the next election and still wouldn't have a majority. If they gain 125 seats they'd have their majority but it'll be wafer thin. We're talking about unbelievable electoral performances to achieve a parliamentary situation that is very difficult to do anything with. It's part of the reason I say this:
Does anyone really expect to see Labour finally, after 15 years of losing elections, finally get themselves in to power in 2024 on a mandate of "I'll do everything Boris does, but forensically and competent" and then suddenly pivot to transformational left wing reforms? Especially if they're in a position of it only taking a handful of rebels to vote those reforms down? This in a party where something like 85% of the MPs hated Corbyn/the left enough to attempt a coup the morning after the Brexit vote - i.e. the tories first real moment of weakness since Cameron became leader in 2005? To me, it's just not realistically going to happen.
It's a political spectrum, he isn't at the extreme left, he isn't at the extreme right like Cummings gang of rogues. He is balanced and pragmatic, that is what this country needs right now. Blair was largely the same, and on domestic policy, public services and economic growth for all, there really isn't a better time than his first 8 years. I think Starmer is cut from that cloth, but maybe less indebted to a warmongering american president.Not looking like he'll get my vote. Nothing on evictions. Will wait to see if there's anything in the manifesto or if it's just soft Tory.
He is balanced and pragmatic, that is what this country needs right now.