Italy v England at the San Siro

Marvanelli

Well-known member
I asked you how his England form had been shambolic, you rephrased it to say below standards and gave one example… but now point to his club form, which we’d already agreed had been well below where it was a year or so ago.

I was asking for examples or evidence of his poor England form because I think we’d both agree that Southgate places a lot of stock in how players perform for him, in his team, and not just what happens at club level.

Are there any other examples of Maguire making mistakes for England or letting the national side down? I really can’t think of any. I wouldn’t even include that Hungary goal but even then that’s one in five or so years. If he’s been that bad for England then surely there’s loads of examples close to hand.
Not remember the Germany goal then? Came from his side of defence....Hofmann in acres of space...

That's 2 errors that have led to goals in only his last 3 England games...
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Not remember the Germany goal then? Came from his side of defence....Hofmann in acres of space...

That's 2 errors that have led to goals in only his last 3 England games...
You want to try and blame Maguire for a shot going through Pickford’s hand?

That sound you can hear is the sound of a barrel being scraped.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
If you want to try and blame Maguire for that, you’d presumably be prepared to acknowledge all the other ‘mistakes’ in the build up that allowed the German attacker to get into that position and have a shot in the first place? Which would mean acknowledging that Maguire and the other England defenders were probably left exposed because of something that’s happened ahead of them.

Or, you can say that Germany had a shot and our ‘keeper should’ve saved it.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
Was the goal against Germany solely Maguire's fault? Definitely not.

But he certainly contributed to the goal. Should Pickford have saved it? Probably.

You have asked for examples of where Maguire has been poor for England of late, and I've given 2 examples that have led to goals conceded in the last 3 games...I've not even bothered to mention the times in which he's been poor and we've not conceded.

Quite fitting, you've done more defending in this post, than Maguire has done in 12 months.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Was the goal against Germany solely Maguire's fault? Definitely not.

But he certainly contributed to the goal. Should Pickford have saved it? Probably.

You have asked for examples of where Maguire has been poor for England of late, and I've given 2 examples that have led to goals conceded in the last 3 games...I've not even bothered to mention the times in which he's been poor and we've not conceded.

Quite fitting, you've done more defending in this post, than Maguire has done in 12 months.
You did say shambolic and then back-peddled, and then raise club form, and then tried to apportion blame onto an individual for what was more than likely a collective failing.

Feel free to mention all the other times he’s been poor and we haven’t conceded.

We’ve got one real mistake here IMO. In a game littered with English mistakes, in which we were 3 goals and a man down.

I don’t think we’re going to agree, are we. I like Maguire. I like that Southgate has shown faith in him. I think sometimes it’s about the person as well. Does Maguire deserve to have been slaughtered in the way that he has? I don’t think so. That Manchester United side has been a mess for ages, it’s too easy and very unfair to single Maguire out IMO.

Let’s just hope that if he plays tonight, he does the basics well and recovers some confidence ahead of the World Cup.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
Agree to disagree.

Let’s just hope that if he plays tonight, he does the basics well and recovers some confidence ahead of the World Cup.
I hope you're right on this, however, I feel like if it goes pear shaped and Maguire continues where he's left off, of late, then big big questions will be asked of Southgate and Gareth will be facing extreme fire from the media.

Hope the gamble of playing him pays off. I just have my concerns.
 

parmoboy

Well-known member
Some players just perform better at international level and at tournaments, for whatever reason.

I remember Miroslav Klose went into the 2010 World Cup having scored just three league goals all season, and managed to score four goals during the tournament.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Agree to disagree.


I hope you're right on this, however, I feel like if it goes pear shaped and Maguire continues where he's left off, of late, then big big questions will be asked of Southgate and Gareth will be facing extreme fire from the media.

Hope the gamble of playing him pays off. I just have my concerns.
I think the knives are already out for Southgate, unfortunately. There were murmurs going into the last tournament and that’s grown since then IMO, despite reaching the final and cruising through World Cup qualifying. I think he’ll be gone by January.
 

jonny_greenings_sock

Well-known member
Good thread this.

As ever the truth lies somewhere between. Maguire isn’t the world’s best defender, but we don’t have any Chiellinis or Kimbempes or Thiago Silvas or Woodgates. He is though one of the best centre backs we have and has been a massive part of a system that’s seen England overachieve, big time.

It’s magnified at United because he’s been dogshit for them, their second biggest problem, and they can afford any player in the world. Varane’s an absolute thoroughbred, it makes Maguire look even worse when you’ve got a player like that on the bench. I do think the way they play isolates him and makes him look worse.

That back 3 England have works wonders though, it’s a great mix. Maguire as the destroyer, John Stones who’s got a brain and can play football, Walker all pace and power. I’d rather have Southgate and Ehiogu in there but you can’t argue with a World Cup semi final and a EUROs final.
 

LaPennaBianca

Well-known member
I think the knives are already out for Southgate, unfortunately. There were murmurs going into the last tournament and that’s grown since then IMO, despite reaching the final and cruising through World Cup qualifying. I think he’ll be gone by January.
I think that he'll do well in the tournament, with England going out in circumstances similar to last summer (wilting to an ET defeat or losing on pens) and the knives will be out.

The sad thing is when you think about where we were to where we are now.

He's taken a team where players were begging their agents to get them out of the camp in Euro 2016 because it was so toxic to one where players are desperate to be there. Look at Lingard last summer, champing at the bit to be involved wherever he could.

He's made playing for England a privilege and a joy again - which may seem simple - but very few of his immediate predecessors managed it.

None of this means he is above criticism. For me he hasn't shown he can properly change a game and needs to learn from Wiegman that subs can massively impact games. England have a strong bench and five subs now, it'd be criminal not to use them. However, he has shown he is willing to learn - look at the difference in quality between WC 2018 and Euro 2020 - and I remain hopeful that he'll do us proud.
 

jonny_greenings_sock

Well-known member
I think that he'll do well in the tournament, with England going out in circumstances similar to last summer (wilting to an ET defeat or losing on pens) and the knives will be out.

The sad thing is when you think about where we were to where we are now.

He's taken a team where players were begging their agents to get them out of the camp in Euro 2016 because it was so toxic to one where players are desperate to be there. Look at Lingard last summer, champing at the bit to be involved wherever he could.

He's made playing for England a privilege and a joy again - which may seem simple - but very few of his immediate predecessors managed it.

None of this means he is above criticism. For me he hasn't shown he can properly change a game and needs to learn from Wiegman that subs can massively impact games. England have a strong bench and five subs now, it'd be criminal not to use them. However, he has shown he is willing to learn - look at the difference in quality between WC 2018 and Euro 2020 - and I remain hopeful that he'll do us proud.
Spot on this.

Gareth has done an unbelievable job as England manager with pride, sincerity and integrity. So easy to forget the circus that England was for the 20+ years before he got the job. Absolutely brilliant.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
I think that he'll do well in the tournament, with England going out in circumstances similar to last summer (wilting to an ET defeat or losing on pens) and the knives will be out.

The sad thing is when you think about where we were to where we are now.

He's taken a team where players were begging their agents to get them out of the camp in Euro 2016 because it was so toxic to one where players are desperate to be there. Look at Lingard last summer, champing at the bit to be involved wherever he could.

He's made playing for England a privilege and a joy again - which may seem simple - but very few of his immediate predecessors managed it.

None of this means he is above criticism. For me he hasn't shown he can properly change a game and needs to learn from Wiegman that subs can massively impact games. England have a strong bench and five subs now, it'd be criminal not to use them. However, he has shown he is willing to learn - look at the difference in quality between WC 2018 and Euro 2020 - and I remain hopeful that he'll do us proud.
Agree with you completely, as per. I just hope we have a good couple of games now and we can look forward to the tournament.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
That’s an incredibly bold team he’s picked tonight by the way.

Saka, Sterling, Kane, Bellingham AND Foden all start. No Stonesy. Maguire and Big Eric at the back, marshalling it like days of yon.
 

Duffman

Well-known member
It is so disappointing that Southgate is in charge of England when we have our best potential in many years. His starting 11 tonight is simply awful - how do players who can’t get a club game start for their country? Sadly a couple of hammerings from sub standard Italy and Germany teams might be what we need to come to our senses!
 

TeaCider

Well-known member
In the made up friendly league?

Every single football match is "made up" if you're going to use a daft argument like that.

The same attitude England took for the first 20 years of the World Cup, missing out on 5 opportunities to be world champions because of parochial arrogance.
 
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