Italy v England at the San Siro

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Put it this way, he's certainly not been the 2nd or 3rd best England CB in the last 12 months or so...both for club and/or country

Especially looking at this list...

Stones
Walker (as a RCB)
Dier
Guehi
Tomori
White

No chance does he deserve a place in the England team ahead of all of those above.
Playing for England isn’t a prize. Maguire has been generally very good for England. I can’t think of anything he’s done wrong for his country. It’s almost as if having a well thought-out, functioning team structure in place makes him and almost every other footballer play better football.
 

Jedi boro

Well-known member
Southgate has loyalty to his key players

All part of club England

But it can go two ways as if goes pear shaped how do those that are playing well for their clubs ( McGuire isn’t even playing some weeks) how they feel. ???
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
My point is that the England manager must pick players to fit his preferred way of playing, to carry out the duties he expects of them. He can rightly point to Maguire and quite a few others and explain how they’ve never let him down and performed very well for four or five years. People forget how good this group of players have been for several years now.

The point about it being a prize, it’s more a comment on how people treat someone who has a few good games or rattles in a few goals. “He MUST be in the next England squad!” Hmm, what if he doesn’t fit into the team shape or what if his qualities don’t fit what the manager wants? Should Southgate scrap his structure to accommodate a player? If he did then he’d be expected to do that every international break.

How would he build any consistency or structure if he has to shift things to fit in the latest flavour of the month? If his selections and structure hadn’t worked or hadn’t delivered success then people would have more of a point.

Maguire, again, has been really good for England. I absolutely detest Manchester United but I really hope the lad can find his form again. I’d love him to leave and get his confidence back. I like the way Southgate looks after him.
 
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Jedi boro

Well-known member
It’s a dangerous game and only works if the results are there if not looks like cronyism and favouritism.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
My point is that the England manager must pick players to fit his preferred way of playing, to carry out the duties he expects of them. He can rightly point to Maguire and quite a few others and explain how they’ve never let him down and performed very well for four or five years. People forget how good this group of players have been for several years now.

The point about it being a prize, it’s more a comment on how people treat someone who has a few good games or rattles in a few goals. “He MUST be in the next England squad!” Hmm, what if he doesn’t fit into the team shape or what if his qualities don’t fit what the manager wants? Should Southgate scrap his structure to accommodate a player? If he did then he’d be expected to do that every international break.

How would he build any consistency or structure if he has to shift things to fit in the latest flavour of the month? If his selections and structure weren’t worked or hadn’t delivered success then people would have more of a point.

Maguire, again, has been really good for England. I absolutely detest Manchester United but I really hope the lad can find his form again. I’d love him to leave and get his confidence back. I like the way Southgate looks after him.
I get that, hence why I said I'm glad he doesn't bow down to pressure from the media/fans etc and actually sticks to his principles...e.g. Pickford in goal.

But there comes a time when you have to look at it and think is this individual what we want/need and is he at the top of his game...

Maguire is currently a shadow of his former self and of late (including recent England performances), he's been, quite honestly, awful to say the least.

How long do you keep playing him because he had a decent 'Euro's'?

He's currently a walking disaster and has been for the best part of 12 months.
 

Jedi boro

Well-known member
Good job the results are there then.
Are they though

Last 4 lost 2 drawn 2 and we struggled when faced credible opposition in the WCQ drawing with Poland snd hungary.

We have the players no doubt about that but do we have the coach to get the best out of them.

International football is all about the next result.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
The most recent results aren't though...
Should the manager base his team on a bad night against Hungary or base it on five years’ worth of good performances?

We were hammered by Hungary. That was an absolute freak result. They picked us off on the break, lost shape at 0-2 and then it went to sh*t.

The other two games in June were a 1-1 in Germany and a 0-0 at home to Italy. Yeah they were slow, laboured games with little or no spark but that’s the same for the opposition as well. I think people remember that Hungary game and it clouds everything else.

*edit - forgot there was a 0-1 in Hungary in June as well.

I still don’t see why we’d be making changes to a successful set-up though. These games do have a competitive edge but they’re essentially training exercises for the larger nations.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
I still don’t see why we’d be making changes to a successful set-up though. These games do have a competitive edge but they’re essentially training exercises for the larger nations.
I'm not suggesting making radical changes. I'm suggesting Maguire should not be in our best 11.

Personally I think with the players we've got, I agree with Southgate in the fact, 5 at the back, with wingbacks, is our best approach as our CB's aren't the best we've ever had (far far cry from the days of Terry/Ferdinand etc), therefore, for us to stay as defensively solid as possible, 3 CB's is probably the best approach with 2 sitting/defensively minded CM's in front....sometimes depends on the opposition too mind.

However, just having the system isn't enough, you need the players and at the moment, we have at least 3 better CB's available than Maguire, based on form/stats (whatever you want) in the last 12 months.

Just because he had a decent World Cup & Euro's in the last 4 years should not justify the reasoning in keeping him in the first 11 when his club form (past 12/18 months?) (and more recent country form) has been shambolic.
 

The Ruthsayer

Active member
Would have gone to it, it’s an incredible stadium but definitely put off by the knuckle draggers that follow England around. A game like this will bring them all out
Let’s have a little balance here, shall we JM14? Yes, England have an unsavoury element, but anyone who went to Roma away will testify that the Italians have their own thugs too.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
I'm not suggesting making radical changes. I'm suggesting Maguire should not be in our best 11.

Personally I think with the players we've got, I agree with Southgate in the fact, 5 at the back, with wingbacks, is our best approach as our CB's aren't the best we've ever had (far far cry from the days of Terry/Ferdinand etc), therefore, for us to stay as defensively solid as possible, 3 CB's is probably the best approach with 2 sitting/defensively minded CM's in front....sometimes depends on the opposition too mind.

However, just having the system isn't enough, you need the players and at the moment, we have at least 3 better CB's available than Maguire, based on form/stats (whatever you want) in the last 12 months.

Just because he had a decent World Cup & Euro's in the last 4 years should not justify the reasoning in keeping him in the first 11 when his club form (past 12/18 months?) (and more recent country form) has been shambolic.
How has his England form been shambolic? Not having a go, just generally interested as I can’t remember him really doing anything wrong for England. Hence him being a nailed-on starter a la Pickford, Sterling, Rice, Kane et al.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
How has his England form been shambolic? Not having a go, just generally interested as I can’t remember him really doing anything wrong for England. Hence him being a nailed-on starter a la Pickford, Sterling, Rice, Kane et al.
I'll rephrase as I was referring more so to his club form.

- His club form has been shambolic. His form for his country (more recently) has been below standards.

As for him not doing anything wrong. Just go and look at Hungary's 4th goal at Molineux. That standard of defending at International level is ridiculous. Down to 10 men or not, there is no excuse to defend like that.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Okay so you’ve got one goal from a game in which we were already 3-0 down and down to ten men. Anything else?

I was sort of expecting more examples TBH.
 

Marvanelli

Well-known member
I was sort of expecting more examples TBH.
Take your pick.

Literally watch any of Utd games he's started this season and there'll be errors all over the place....not to mention last season.

Quite honestly, it would be quicker and easier to list the good things he's done in the last 12 months.

But yes, lets continue to build our national team with him in the first 11.
 

viv_andersons_nana

Well-known member
Take your pick.

Literally watch any of Utd games he's started this season and there'll be errors all over the place....not to mention last season.

Quite honestly, it would be quicker and easier to list the good things he's done in the last 12 months.

But yes, lets continue to build our national team with him in the first 11.
I asked you how his England form had been shambolic, you rephrased it to say below standards and gave one example… but now point to his club form, which we’d already agreed had been well below where it was a year or so ago.

I was asking for examples or evidence of his poor England form because I think we’d both agree that Southgate places a lot of stock in how players perform for him, in his team, and not just what happens at club level.

Are there any other examples of Maguire making mistakes for England or letting the national side down? I really can’t think of any. I wouldn’t even include that Hungary goal but even then that’s one in five or so years. If he’s been that bad for England then surely there’s loads of examples close to hand.
 
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