Laughing
Well-known member
Enjoy Jostler.
Herd Immunity
- Thread starter Randy
- Start date
Andy_W
Well-known member
Maybe on here, fine with that though
Following the guidance, which likely has scientific/ risk management backing, is fine with me though.
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Andy_W
Well-known member
The number of positive caught/ tested cases is not a true reflection of actual cases.How do you work out there’s been a billion infected - if that’s correct then 2.9 million dead still works out at less than 0.3% death rate
In the first wave it was expected that missed cases could have been 10x the caught cases, seeing as we had barely any testing being carried out.
Obviously, a lot of other countries don't have the same funding as us, for tests, and we did a $hit job, can only expect some others have done worse.
Then couple that with the "less than truthful" nations, with regards to cases and deaths.
No IFR study has shown 0.2% or 0.3% for a country with accurate reporting, and a large sample size. For example, we had an IFR of 1.1% back in the summer, and we've got one of the best healthcare systems in the world. That IFR would be worse in poorer nations or if healthcare was overwhelmed, which we nearly achieved twice.
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Andy_W
Well-known member
I agree, they've made a boat load of errors, but to me this is one of the few times they've aired on the side of caution, or been on the side of least risk, which is the side I've been on (and generally the side the experts have been on).
I just don't see the point in unnecessary risk, especially that which has zero economic benefit.
Laughing
Well-known member
And economic benefit is the driving factor for you? OK understood. Economics is not the driving factor for a lot of people. Quality of life, decent mental well being. More difficult to measure, but no less important than an economy the goverrnment can steal from.
As for the science behind this.. Could you show me that? As far as I am aware no scientist has yet said "don't hug indoors, it's a killer". What would be the difference in mortality rate between people hugging indoors and those hugging outdoors? For someone with such a strong opinion I would think you would have done the maths.
You are entitled to your opinion and to voice it on here, but to be honest I think you're nuts on this one.
I for one would rather be dead than live in a world where hugging was a monitored activity legislated for.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Low infection rates, people staying alive and then the economy not taking a beating are my main three, as those provide better quality of life over a longer period, than delaying a hug for a few months, that's the way I see it.
Mental well being of those who died, those who get/ had covid, those with long covid, those that lost loved ones, those working in the NHS, those not working due to rising infection rates effectively forcing business closure. I think they're more important than those having hugs, for the time being. Like I said though, we're only 2-3 month from pretty much about as good a cover as we can hope to get. I personally would just put hugs on hold, but that's me.
Like I've explained previously, it's the setting, it's what precedes and follows it, anything encouraging people to meet or be outside more/ for longer is better, it has to better as it cannot be worse or equal. I would expect it's effectively not just hugging, it's maintaining social distance, which has been a good idea since day 1 and there's countless studies proving this.
It's only for another 1-2 months, stop getting your knickers in a twist.
Funky_Chicken
Well-known member
Some people are now scared of their own shadow it would seem
Andy_W
Well-known member
Like who?
I'm not scared in the slightest by the way, not even 0.2%, I'm not even concerned for any of my family either really, seeing as none of us are in any of the higher risk groups and nearly all that I know that work in healthcare have had it already or had both vaccines.
I don't mind making sacrifices (tiny in this case) for others benefit though, even those I don't know and will never meet.
Mendieta14
Well-known member
The more it spreads the more variants we are going to have to face.
10% of French cases are the SA variant which is resistant to the AZ vaccine..
and Europe is about to be swamped by the British variant which we just came out the other end of.
10% of French cases are the SA variant which is resistant to the AZ vaccine..
and Europe is about to be swamped by the British variant which we just came out the other end of.
Laughing
Well-known member
Go ahead and make your sacrifices as you see fit, you're free to do that, as is everyone else.Like who?
I'm not scared in the slightest by the way, not even 0.2%, I'm not even concerned for any of my family either really, seeing as none of us are in any of the higher risk groups and nearly all that I know that work in healthcare have had it already or had both vaccines.
I don't mind making sacrifices (tiny in this case) for others benefit though, even those I don't know and will never meet.
Andy_W
Well-known member
It's not as I see fit, it is guidance measures underpinned by the law, and abiding by this guidance/ law costs absolutely zero economically and reduces risk to others lives.
By that are you saying that everyone should just do what they like and you would ignore the social distancing measures, which other measures are you going to ignore? What if everyone just ignored all the measures and laws?
The tories have handled this extremely poorly, most of that has been due to not listening to the experts and taking too much risk with the first wave, and then again with the second. The problem is people are using this previous poor performance as a reason to take additional risks and ignore current advice, which is bizarre, and selfish. If anything, if people think the tories have done poorly, I would expect that those complaining would be taking less risks, not more, it's hypocritical.
Yes, we have low cases now, and the risk is very low, but the reason it's low is because most have been following the guidance, and we seemingly have a bright light et the end of the tunnel, which is not far away at all (providing people don't screw it up).
Just to be clear on what the current requirement is:
(COVID-19) Coronavirus restrictions: what you can and cannot do
Coronavirus remains a serious threat across the country. Find out what you can and cannot do.
From 12 April:
Keeping yourself and others safe
Social distancing is still very important. You should stay 2 metres apart from anyone who is not in your household or support bubble where possible, or 1 metre with extra precautions in place (such as wearing face coverings) if you cannot stay 2 metres apart.You should follow the guidance on how to stop the spread of coronavirus at all times, including if you have been vaccinated against COVID-19.
You should follow this guidance in full to limit spreading COVID-19. It is underpinned by law.
Meeting family and friends indoors
You must not meet indoors with anybody you do not live with, unless you have formed a support bubble with them (if you are eligible), or another legal exemption applies.
Meeting friends and family outdoors (rule of 6)
You can meet up outdoors with friends and family you do not live with, either:- in a group of up to 6 from any number of households (children of all ages count towards the limit of 6)
- in a group of any size from up to two households (each household can include an existing support bubble, if eligible)
Laughing
Well-known member
So go ahead and follow the guidance Andy, no one is stopping you. Well done you.It's not as I see fit, it is guidance measures underpinned by the law, and abiding by this guidance/ law costs absolutely zero economically and reduces risk to others lives.
By that are you saying that everyone should just do what they like and you would ignore the social distancing measures, which other measures are you going to ignore? What if everyone just ignored all the measures and laws?
The tories have handled this extremely poorly, most of that has been due to not listening to the experts and taking too much risk with the first wave, and then again with the second. The problem is people are using this previous poor performance as a reason to take additional risks and ignore current advice, which is bizarre, and selfish. If anything, if people think the tories have done poorly, I would expect that those complaining would be taking less risks, not more, it's hypocritical.
Yes, we have low cases now, and the risk is very low, but the reason it's low is because most have been following the guidance, and we seemingly have a bright light et the end of the tunnel, which is not far away at all (providing people don't screw it up).
Just to be clear on what the current requirement is:
(COVID-19) Coronavirus restrictions: what you can and cannot do
Coronavirus remains a serious threat across the country. Find out what you can and cannot do.www.gov.uk
From 12 April:
Keeping yourself and others safe
Social distancing is still very important. You should stay 2 metres apart from anyone who is not in your household or support bubble where possible, or 1 metre with extra precautions in place (such as wearing face coverings) if you cannot stay 2 metres apart.
You should follow the guidance on how to stop the spread of coronavirus at all times, including if you have been vaccinated against COVID-19.
You should follow this guidance in full to limit spreading COVID-19. It is underpinned by law.
Meeting family and friends indoors
You must not meet indoors with anybody you do not live with, unless you have formed a support bubble with them (if you are eligible), or another legal exemption applies.
Meeting friends and family outdoors (rule of 6)
You can meet up outdoors with friends and family you do not live with, either:
- in a group of up to 6 from any number of households (children of all ages count towards the limit of 6)
- in a group of any size from up to two households (each household can include an existing support bubble, if eligible)
For my part I will not today allow this government to legislate who, where and when I can hug.
You're arguments don't consistently stack up. The government told us that vaccinations were the way out. Now it seems they don't want to hand over their emergency powers, so vaccinations are no longer the way out. Don't know about you but I find that interesting.
You blindly follow this government if you wish. How long will you do that for? 3 more months, 6 months a year. When will you start to ignore government guidelines?
Oh and don't tell me it's just for a few more weeks. That is laughable. Johnson and his bunch of mercenary theives will prolong this as long as you and others allow it. It is how they are stealing from us.
Wake up man. What was essential 6 months ago is no longer, necessarily essential. I have seen no science to back up your layman's assertion that hugging indoors is more dangerous than outdoors. I have seen not one jot of scientific evidence that vaccinations are not as effective as was originally quoted. In fact, I haven't seen one jot of evidence from Johnson, they don't routinely publish SAGE advice. They spin and manipulate to their own ends.
This is not about saving lives and it never was. Lockdowns happened ONLY because bodies lying in hospital corridors is a bad political optic, nothing more, nothing less.
I also find your opinion around the economy ridiculous, it assumes the only way people suffer is financially.
Andy_W
Well-known member
By you wanting to hug, you mean you're not wanting social distancing right? And by doing it indoors, you mean you're not following the guidance of being outdoors, right? So that's what you're not wanting them to legislate, no social distancing and setting guidance?
Vaccinations are the way out, long term, always have been always will be. But social distancing and restrictive measures are short term, always have been, always will be.
I don't blindly follow the government, I do what is least risk, without causing issues elsewhere. It's called being a responsible, selfless adult.
The guidance hasn't changed recently, I think for a couple of months, and we're effectively ahead of vaccination and cases schedule, so there's no reason to think we would not be out of this soon. It's in the government's interest to reduce transmission as quickly as possible, get out of this as soon as possible, and get everyone working to pay tax and line the tory pockets. This is what science has advised all along, control early, protect early and get to the other side/ normality early, before the government were too short sighted. Some other places got the idea of this about a year ago, it's seemingly taken us much longer, but now when they do actually do it, people want to go against it, laughable.
6 months ago? The peak was 3 months ago, and only two months ago we were still at levels equivalent to lower December levels which led to that peak. If you can get something as basic as this wrong, then forgive me if I think you're not talking any sense.
Hugging indoors = not outside & not social distancing, if you need "evidence" to prove this a bad idea or more risk, after the last years experience, data, testing etc, then replying to you is a waste of time.
It might not be about saving lives to the government, but if that is a by product of what they're doing (and it's worked well since the Christmas **** up), then I'll go along with it. I'd rather agree with them on this, than go against them for the sake of it and have more death. Even as a labour voter I would rather people just did as they asked in this case.
Who said the only way people suffer is financially? Not me, ever. It does have a knock-on effect to everything though. A failing economy is bad for the UK, bad for its services, bad for its funding, bad for almost everyone in almost every way, but not just financially. The same way covid increasing and people dying is worse for the family members mental health (and the one who died no longer having any health), than people waiting another month or two for a hug.
I appreciate this is a waste of time on you, some people can just never see that if everyone works together, then ultimately it works out best for all.
If everyone acted in a selfish way, then everything would have been 10 times worse, so it's good that most people don't do that.
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Randy
Well-known member
There are more and more people everywhere thinking along the same lines as you now mate.
We were told vaccination was the problem solver. All the vunerable groups have now received at least one part of the vaccine. That accounts for 99% of the recorded deaths.
Some may have noticed a change in tact from the papers this weekend too.
Laughing
Well-known member
I'll try this once more then I am done Andy.
The government are full of ****. They will perpetuate this for as long as they are allowed to. Social distancing was required previously. If you and the person you are hugging are vaccinated, what is the risk to any one else? Do tell me, cos I can't find any scientific evidence that there is any risk above the normal day to day risk og living.
I'll ask again when will you start to ignore the government guidance, 3 months, 6 month, or will you follow along for as long as you are told to.
We are not in the same situation we were in a few months ago. The risk of dying from covid at under 50 is tiny. The over 50's have all been vaccinated at least with 1 shot. The government told us we are 94% protected as I recall after one shot. Which is it, are we protected or not?
Carry on Andy, you do it your way I'l ldo it mine.
The government are full of ****. They will perpetuate this for as long as they are allowed to. Social distancing was required previously. If you and the person you are hugging are vaccinated, what is the risk to any one else? Do tell me, cos I can't find any scientific evidence that there is any risk above the normal day to day risk og living.
I'll ask again when will you start to ignore the government guidance, 3 months, 6 month, or will you follow along for as long as you are told to.
We are not in the same situation we were in a few months ago. The risk of dying from covid at under 50 is tiny. The over 50's have all been vaccinated at least with 1 shot. The government told us we are 94% protected as I recall after one shot. Which is it, are we protected or not?
Carry on Andy, you do it your way I'l ldo it mine.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Everyone's approach is positive, it's right to be, I'm certainly very optimistic and have been for a few months. But like the likes of Whitty keep saying, lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet, when we're so close.
The vaccine has always been the way out, still is, providing it works on all current strains and helps with future ones.
The point is most have had only half, and the second booster has had little time to provide the full protection, there's no point in wasting this additional protection.
Then you also have 40% of adults who have not had any at all, who are all susceptible to long covid, and the fun things that will bring in the future, not to mention the children who won't get vaccinated or who are not counted.
Papers (and the public) are happy as we're sticking to the plan, because cases and vaccines are ahead of schedule, and we're ahead of schedule as people have distanced well since Christmas and the vaccines are going well, despite so minor setbacks.
bear66
Well-known member
Any up to date links to the "94%"? Seems very high. Or is it 94% of the double dose efficacy, which would be about 75% maximum?
Laughing
Well-known member
There was a willingness to subject ourselves to suffering when the elderly and those with health problems were vulnerable.
Not one scrap of evidence from this government about risk factors now. Treating us all as fools to be manipulated.
The situation today is very different to 3 months ago.
I want to see evidence and we are offered none. The feeding frenzy doesn't have to long left and you can be sure Johnson will want to perpetuate the danger so long as there is money to be made.
Laughing
Well-known member
Not sure bear it was figured that were quoted by our government when the one dose for 3 months was touted.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Yeah, I've had enough too haha!
They are full of $hit, I totally agree there, but I have just paid more attention to science, Whitty, others etc. It now seems the government are finally listening to these, and it's working, just wish we had done that from the start.
The vaccine is not 100% protection, not instantly, and certainly not from one jab.
Is everyone you're hugging vaccinated? Vaccinated with two doses? Not coming into contact with others who may not be, through no fault of their own?
If you've both had two jabs, and had time to let those build up full protection, then yes the risk is absolutely tiny, but how many "potential huggers" are in this category, not many.
I'll follow what science says, and just move along with that, there are no set timescales. I'll probably not break any rules/ guidance, haven't done yet, and wouldn't take any significant unnecessary risk until I've had at least one vaccine, had at least months worth of protection, and we're not in a period of increase.
The risk of death is tiny, but it's not just death, it's long covid, it's case increases, more healthcare pressure, more lockdowns etc. I don't fancy any of that, so I'll just keep my distance for another couple of month.
Yeah, I'll do it my way (following guidance, as a minimum) with a clear conscience and hopefully, people doing the same will pick up the slack of the selfish lot, just like we have been doing all year, and juts like what has led to us being in this situation. Had people just acted selfishly and done what they like, we wouldn't even be in this position.