Herd Immunity

I don't really understand herd immunity very well so I can't comment. I know it's a good thing and that's enough for me.
 
I have become weary of claims like this, various experts last year claimed it would not come back in the winter and that the virus had mutated to have a negligible effect, looking back it seems like various non lockdown agendas were being promoted.
My doubts with this claim of herd immunity, are that the vaccinations have been concentrated in older age groups, people under 50 it still has to make a big dent in they are the ones likely to be having the most social contacts in the coming months. 79% of people who had the jab develop resistance to Cv19, that still leaves 21% possibly could get it out of the group's vaccinated. Just because people have tested for antibodies last month does not mean they will be around later, antbodies diminish overtime. I'm not sure where UCL is coming from on this but after last year I take any claim like this as just a theory.
 
I thought I understood herd immunity, in that when it was reached we could start acting more or less normally again, that doesn't seem to be the case though. Looks like all sorts of restrictions/testing etc even with it.

Someone who's clued up please educate me 😗
 
Herd Immunity occurs when there is no one left to pass on the virus to infect someone else and it therefore dies out.

With most infections this comes at around 70% protected

Interestingly infections seem to have fallen off a cliff in the last few weeks.. It is therefore possible that we are there or at worst thereabouts

We won't know for a little while yet but its promising, in my opinion

Sorry about the lousy explanation to start with - I'm sure there must be another way to put it but I think what I have said is accurate
 
Herd Immunity occurs when there is no one left to pass on the virus to infect someone else and it therefore dies out.

With most infections this comes at around 70% protected

Interestingly infections seem to have fallen off a cliff in the last few weeks.. It is therefore possible that we are there or at worst thereabouts

We won't know for a little while yet but its promising, in my opinion

Sorry about the lousy explanation to start with - I'm sure there must be another way to put it but I think what I have said is accurate
See I thought that too but if that's the case either having had the virus or the vaccination must offer very close to 100% immunity. As I understand it the vaccines mainly reduce symptoms so make the virus less deadly meaning we can all get infected despite being vaccinated. So the virus doesn't run out of hosts. That's my confusion.
 
See I thought that too but if that's the case either having had the virus or the vaccination must offer very close to 100% immunity. As I understand it the vaccines mainly reduce symptoms so make the virus less deadly meaning we can all get infected despite being vaccinated. So the virus doesn't run out of hosts. That's my confusion.
Climate playing a role in the march towards herd immunity too.

 
That was on this morning's TV. Makes perfect sense that if you hardly test anyone, not many can show as positive.
Are.the hospitals filling up in this states that have opened up? I see Georgia is following next week.
 
Are.the hospitals filling up in this states that have opened up? I see Georgia is following next week.
To be honest, I'm not particularly concerned about the redneck states, so I haven't looked. Our hospitalisation rates are going down though. I get regular updates on how many of our beds are being used for Covid patients and we only have about 300 at the moment.
 
To be honest, I'm not particularly concerned about the redneck states, so I haven't looked. Our hospitalisation rates are going down though. I get regular updates on how many of our beds are being used for Covid patients and we only have about 300 at the moment.
Vaccination in full effect then in NY with cases are.still going up bit hospitalisations are low.
 
I'm getting to the limits of my expertise ( such as it is). If the antibodies prevent the disease becoming established then instead of a long time being infectious you be infectious for only a short time. If that infection cannot find anyone to infect in its infectious period then the disease cannot grow/continue

I understand why you would expect that to be almost 100% needed but it is not so - about 70% will be sufficient

Hope that helps
 
I'm getting to the limits of my expertise ( such as it is). If the antibodies prevent the disease becoming established then instead of a long time being infectious you be infectious for only a short time. If that infection cannot find anyone to infect in its infectious period then the disease cannot grow/continue

I understand why you would expect that to be almost 100% needed but it is not so - about 70% will be sufficient

Hope that helps
I see what you are saying, I have no idea. I used to think I knew what it meant, not so sure now.
 
In one Whitehall meeting recently, there was serious discussion about new rules for hugging: should it be allowed outdoors, but not indoors? More worryingly, the taskforce setting the rules on international travel last week managed an entire strategy session without any serious discussion about the economic damage imposed by quarantines. In a country where over two million jobs depend on tourism, that’s quite an omission.


A discussion about allowing people to hug outdoors but not indoors? Do you get it yet? Behavioural scientists using the shrinking pandemic as a mass behavioural experiment.





From the Telegraph.



Boris Johnson was vaccinated against his own optimism by the third lockdown – and the protection seems to be long lasting. He grumbles that there’s only one real certainty about Covid: when things go wrong, Britain tends to get hit worst. That certainly was the experience of last year – but the surprise, now, is that things are going badly right. He is now facing the very real prospect that his “scientific cavalry” has not only arrived but is fairly close to winning the battle against coronavirus.

The vaccines have worked, better than anyone expected. More effective and more eagerly sought-after than any modeller dared to imagine. British Covid deaths are now the lowest in Europe, having fallen faster than even in Israel. There are no more “excess deaths” – in fact, fewer people are dying, now, than normal. The data has for some time, been unremittingly positive. Several parts of the country have been virtually Covid-free for several weeks.

The idea that we might achieve herd immunity on Monday – as a model from UCL suggests – is unexpected. But entirely plausible. We heard about herd immunity quite a lot at the start of the pandemic, because this is how viruses die. Infections keep rising until a certain percentage of the population is protected – either by recovery, or vaccination. The figure of 60 per cent was mentioned at first. Other estimates go as high as 85 per cent: as ever, with Covid, no one is quite sure. But whatever the threshold is, Britain looks likely to hit it soon.

Importantly, this is now Government policy: to achieve herd immunity by autumn through mass vaccination. The target may be reached earlier: a Bristol University model says August. Perhaps UCL is right and we will arrive at this promised land next week. After which there should – in theory – not be much need for restrictions. It ought to be impossible for Covid to overwhelm the health service again. It would be an incredible prize, one of the greatest scientific achievements of our times. It’s not just possible, but probable.

But the timing? No one can know for sure. This takes us back to the debate about vaccine passports, the future of lockdown and a summer of travel restrictions. The current thinking inside No 10 is that lockdown ends on 21 June, with herd immunity by September 30. So what regime should exist in between these dates? How likely is the virus to stage a summer revival? What bridging measures, if any, should be in place? This is the basis of the reviews into social distancing, travel bans and the rest.

It’s a perfectly sensible argument – but one not yet being made in public. In part, this is because “herd immunity” is seen as a politically toxic phrase. Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, used it once and was stunned to find himself accused of a secret plan to sacrifice the elderly. As he found out, social media helps hysteria spread faster than any virus. It was a brutal lesson in the new politics of pandemics: never mention the h-word.

Another reason to keep quiet about this is the still-huge element of doubt. If a new variant escapes the vaccine, or if recovery immunity is found to be short-lived, the whole herd immunity argument collapses.

Yet so far, the signs are encouraging. Pfizer claims to be 100 per cent effective in South Africa, home of the notorious variant, and the numbers of Covid reinfections worldwide are tiny. This gives ground for political optimism: herd immunity will (probably) arrive. Maybe not quite on Monday, but soon. And that ought to change everything.

This takes us back to the case for candour. Would it be so bad, now, to admit to a herd immunity strategy? There have been discussions in government about renaming it “community immunity” or “collective immunity”. It seems odd to be working towards a goal that can’t be properly explained.

But a lack of clarity causes problems, as we saw this week. The argument for young people being jabbed is to help achieve herd immunity, to protect others. But squeamishness about admitting this led to the bizarre situation where young people were told that vaccination is a matter of personal risk. One graph shown suggested that, given the low prevalence of the virus, the risk to under-30s from blood clots with AstraZeneca was almost the same as the risk from Covid. Both are very low risks, but it’s an unpersuasive message. As is dangling the threat of vaccine passports, as if to say: get the jab if you ever want to see the inside of a nightclub again.

A more direct – and honest message – may work better: get the jab to stop the spread. The statistician David Spiegelhalter puts it well. For younger people, he says, “being vaccinated is as much a contribution to the community and their relatives and the people around them”. The last year has shown young people making all kinds of sacrifices to fend off a virus that they know will barely affect them. It’s hard to argue that they would not respond to plain arguments now. Matt Hancock is toying with a new soundbite: “do your bit.” But it’s no substitute for a broader discussion.

Talking things through more openly may also improve the quality of decisions inside the Government. In one Whitehall meeting recently, there was serious discussion about new rules for hugging: should it be allowed outdoors, but not indoors? More worryingly, the taskforce setting the rules on international travel last week managed an entire strategy session without any serious discussion about the economic damage imposed by quarantines. In a country where over two million jobs depend on tourism, that’s quite an omission.

We saw something else in this week’s AstraZeneca debate: blood clots discussed calmly, as a balance of risk. To hear Dr Alison Astles urge people to “keep saving lives” by taking the vaccine, after her brother died of side effects, has been one of the most moving moments of the pandemic. It would be quite something if this sparks a change in tone – where ministers move beyond podium slogans and start a more direct, transparent discussion about what now lies ahead.
 
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