F*CK VAR

Nano said:
Entertainment is a form of activity that holds the attention and interest of an audience or gives pleasure and delight. It can be an idea or a task, but it is more likely to be one of the activities or events that have developed over thousands of years specifically for the purpose of keeping an audience's attention.
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Yeah that describes football. Tell me why it doesn't.
 
Muttley said:
How silly of me thinking I was supposed to be entertained by football! What a fool I have been.

I shall endeavour to study my spreadsheets and statistics more closely so that I can join the exalted cognoscenti!

Of course football is an entertainment, it competes for our leisure money. I could choose to go watch a film or attend a gig, perhaps go hang gliding or any other frippery that is not essential to my life. You really have bought into the line ""Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that." Shankly was pulling journo's plonker when he said that (it is also a slight misquote). It was devilment, he was a life long socialist and believed no such thing.

I'm confident that Shankly would hate VAR as much as I do.
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But you've just said it competes for your leisure money?

You may not consider it a business but I can guarantee those taking your leisure money do!

Of course like any entertainment business, the product and the commercial success are linked. A cinema may want to show the biggest blockbusters which will make the most revenue but they cost more to acquire (similar analogy to football players I guess?)

The interesting element to sports business is the affinity to a team. Even if we're not being entertained or getting results, people will still rock up every week and spend money, but from a business POV that is not the target audience, rather those who only attend when the team are doing well etc.
 
changingman said:
But you've just said it competes for your leisure money?

You may not consider it a business but I can guarantee those taking your leisure money do!
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Of course it is a business, just like making films, music or providing hang gliders. Produce a product people want and sell it to them. Leisure is a business. Football is one of the "entertainments" competing for our disposable income.
 
Muttley said:
Of course it is a business, just like making films, music or providing hang gliders. Produce a product people want and sell it to them. Leisure is a business. Football is one of the "entertainments" competing for our disposable income.
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But that isn't the purpose of football. Football would exist whether you were watching it or not. The presentation of football on Sky is entertainment but the football itself isn't. Sky, or anyone else, has nothing to do with it. Entertaining you is a byproduct of the football. Those other things mentioned like TV and film aren't. They are made to be watched.

If football was an entertainment then it would be produced with the audience in mind and it isn't. It's a competition. Middlesbrough didn't hire Tony Pulis to entertain people. They did it because they believed he offered the best chance of being successful (don't ask me why Woodgate was hired).

The governing body of football have introduced VAR, and they update the rules all the time, to increase the accuracy because there is so much riding on things being correct. They want the game to be fair because that's what fans want. I can't believe anyone would argue that they prefer wrong decisions. I can understand saying you don't like the implementation and you want things to improve but to actively want to regress to things being wrong more often is baffling.

Incorrect decisions and injustices are far more likely to stop me watching football than having to wait for the correct decision every now and again. Even more so when there is a perfectly valid solution.
 
BoroMart said:
How am I moving any goalposts?
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You've changed the narrative from VAR making the game better due to the increase in accuracy to me needing to prove there are no accuracy improvements. I've not suggested that at any point.

BoroMart said:
show your stats that VAR doesn’t improve Accuracy as you suggested earlier. I’ve only asked 4 times now
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Where have I said that VAR doesn't improve accuracy?

I've gone back through every word I've written on this thread and I've not said anything approaching that.

I fully accept that VAR improves accuracy. I don't accept that the minor improvement is worth the negative impact on the game.

BoroMart said:
7.2 percentage points is significant. 7.2% more goals can be the difference between promotion and not.
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You're just abusing the stats now. There wasn't 7.2% more goals. In Spitz et al they recorded 114 fewer goals overall due to VAR [the difference was actually 6.2 not 7.2 assuming we're using the 92.1 to 98.3 %ages for referee correctness].

The study also admits that in real world VAR usage their numbers would be greatly reduced due to the nature of refereeing and game management by refs. 70% of matches required no on-field review. That means that the refs got every penalty and red-card decision correct in those games. Broken down further it means that for a single team there is likely to be only one or two of those corrected decisions during a season. In my opinion that isn't enough to justify the current impact on the game while those decisions are sorted out. I assume that referees are actively trying to be fair and consistent.

And none of this addresses the difference between games with VAR and games without. As far as I'm aware no-one has retrospectively analysed matches to any degree that would make such a comparison possible. Human nature dictates that a referee is likely to err on the side of caution knowing that VAR can and will clear things up.
 
Nano said:
Allowing the rules to be applied randomly and haphazardly might give the broadcasters something to talk about but it lessens the competition, it doesn't enhance it.
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Pre-VAR the rules weren't applied "randomly and haphazardly".

The referee was charged with implementing the rules based on his (or her) judgement and were given guidelines for interpretation. The fact that there can be interpretation means the rules aren't rigid enough to allow for 100% accuracy as different refs are able to make correct decisions that are completely at odds with each other. The guidlines even allow refs to be more lenient with e.g. yellow cards earlier in a match where the same foul will be punished automatically later in a game.

I don't want more wrong decisions. I also don't want technological interference that impacts other areas of the matchday experience. There weren't enough absolutely wrong decisions prior to VAR being introduced to merit the current intrusions.
 
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Nano said:
But that isn't the purpose of football. Football would exist whether you were watching it or not. The presentation of football on Sky is entertainment but the football itself isn't. Sky, or anyone else, has nothing to do with it. Entertaining you is a byproduct of the football. Those other things mentioned like TV and film aren't. They are made to be watched.

If football was an entertainment then it would be produced with the audience in mind and it isn't. It's a competition. Middlesbrough didn't hire Tony Pulis to entertain people. They did it because they believed he offered the best chance of being successful (don't ask me why Woodgate was hired).

The governing body of football have introduced VAR, and they update the rules all the time, to increase the accuracy because there is so much riding on things being correct. They want the game to be fair because that's what fans want. I can't believe anyone would argue that they prefer wrong decisions. I can understand saying you don't like the implementation and you want things to improve but to actively want to regress to things being wrong more often is baffling.

Incorrect decisions and injustices are far more likely to stop me watching football than having to wait for the correct decision every now and again. Even more so when there is a perfectly valid solution.
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I feel sorry for you.
 
Nano said:
If football was an entertainment then it would be produced with the audience in mind and it isn't.
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I'm sorry it is impossible to argue with someone who doesn't actually understand what they are seeing!

As you walk towards the stadium on Saturday, you will see an edifice constructed to allow people to watch the game. The whole purpose of presenting football in a stadium is to accommodate a crowd. You might notice the excitement of those around you. Afterwards, you may discuss the events of the match on here or in the pub just as you might with any other entertainment. You can pretend if you like that you have some sort of higher calling in attending the match but when it comes down to it, if you stop enjoying the experience you won't go.

That's... entertainment.
 
Muttley said:
I'm sorry it is impossible to argue with someone who doesn't actually understand what they are seeing!

As you walk towards the stadium on Saturday, you will see an edifice constructed to allow people to watch the game. The whole purpose of presenting football in a stadium is to accommodate a crowd. You might notice the excitement of those around you. Afterwards, you may discuss the events of the match on here or in the pub just as you might with any other entertainment. You can pretend if you like that you have some sort of higher calling in attending the match but when it comes down to it, if you stop enjoying the experience you won't go.

That's... entertainment.
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All of that you mentioned, literally every single thing, is not part of the football. The actual thing happening on the pitch is the football. The only reason you are there is the football. You don't go along to that stadium when there is no match on. You will enjoy/not enjoy your pint, sit or stand and sing along and that will be true whether the team wins, loses or draws but none of that changes the outcome of the game. You are there for the football. The football isn't there for you. That's why the matches still went ahead during COVID when no fans could be there. It's not a higher calling. It's just a fact. It's a competition and you can go and spectate it or not but it's still happening. The team has more chance of success if it makes money which is why fans are there.
 
TeaCider said:
I'd sooner Middlesbrough won a final fairly than lost a final entertainingly through an incorrect decision.

I was raging with the decision on Monday night, but that was down to incompetent refereeing rather than VAR as a concept.
A good VAR official would have ensured Simon Hooper went to the monitor and corrected a blatantly incorrect decision.

Man United got an undeserved point because VAR didn't intervene, and it spoiled the match, it wasn't entertaining watching a goalkeeper wipe out an opposition player off the ball and have 3 incompetent referees decide there was nothing wrong with it.

I'm sure Man United fans are happy that they stole a result, but everyone else was just ***ed off by it.
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The result doesn't determine whether a game is entertaining or not.

The decision didn't make it a poor game, it simply highlighted that corruption is alive and well in English football.
 
EuropaParmo said:
I don't care that VAR improves the decisions slightly/significantly (depending on your viewpoint) at the detriment of the overall game. No one will ever convince me it is better.

The best thing about being in the championship is that I can celebrate a goal knowing it's a goal. That's gone when you are in the money league
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It’ll be in the championship within 5 years, guaranteed
 
Lack of VAR in the championship have robbed Leeds here. Clear handball, and a clear penalty ignored by the ref. I mean I struggle for sympathy with it being Leeds, but still, the game has been decided by a lack of VAR.
 
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