EU slaps vaccine export ban rules on UK

Emmersons_BrazillianDong said:
I don't disagree with the retribution point as there's bound to be some **** waving and ******* contests along the way but this goes way beyond that on the EU side.

It's absolutely OK to say that the EU have acted poorly here without compromising your stance. I can disaggregate poor decisions from the EU and bad judgement from our horrific Tory government as not being mutually exclusive.

I think it's important not to let the recent history cloud the difference between right and wrong. Especially not when people are dying every day.

The behaviour of the EU threatens lives as much as the awful management of our country and neither are acceptable, least of all on political grounds.
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My perception of the EU view is that they are attempting to reduce the loss of lives in their countries.

Sadly, this argument is about which countries are likely to lose more lives due to non-delivery of products.

I feel that it is due to a company that overestimated it's ability to deliver. It looks like it over promised to two different customers.

I am sure that such disputes happen all the time. However in this case the stakes are much higher.

It is made worse by the temporary shortfall in delivery of Pfizer vaccines.

The sad thing is that this situation is likely to lead to increased loss of lives somewhere in the world.

I am pleased that the EU has backed down on NI. A relatively easy thing to do as no vaccines cross the land border at present. However I see that they reserve the right to stop this route being a "back door" in the future. In the context of the new export control checks this seems reasonable.
 
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Takes a lot to unite the Irish nationalists and unionists and it just shows that project EU will be put above anything else. Even though they have backtracked the damage is already done.

Politics aside, I wouldn’t swap our vaccination situation for the shambles that is the EUs, even the most ardent remainer wouldn’t.
 
UKLL1981 said:
Takes a lot to unite the Irish nationalists and unionists and it just shows that project EU will be put above anything else. Even though they have backtracked the damage is already done.

Politics aside, I wouldn’t swap our vaccination situation for the shambles that is the EUs.
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The damage was done in 2016 and perpetuated in negotiations since, such that a clause allows either side to renege on the Good Friday agreement.
 
UKLL1981 said:
Takes a lot to unite the Irish nationalists and unionists and it just shows that project EU will be put above anything else. Even though they have backtracked the damage is already done.

Politics aside, I wouldn’t swap our vaccination situation for the shambles that is the EUs, even the most ardent remainer wouldn’t.
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I mean, the IRA aren't blowing up guard stations, so the damage has been limited.
 
I can see some form of deal being done. Where the EU allows the UK some Pfizer vaccine manufactured in Europe. In return some of the UK produced AstraZeneca one gets shipped to Europe.

The difficulty is this is a political deal. With the governments each then telling the manufacturers what to do.
 
It looks like it has all been sorted now.

Just a point for the triumphalist Brexiteers, I don't like the Johnson Government and their serial incompetence during the pandemic, that does not make me want to shut parliament. Similarly some EU officials did some stupid things, I still believe that on balance we would be better off in the EU and that we will rejoin.
 
Muttley said:
It looks like it has all been sorted now.

Just a point for the triumphalist Brexiteers, I don't like the Johnson Government and their serial incompetence during the pandemic, that does not make me want to shut parliament. Similarly some EU officials did some stupid things, I still believe that on balance we would be better off in the EU and that we will rejoin.
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I’d be surprised if there’s and EU to rejoin within 5 years
 
Muttley said:
It looks like it has all been sorted now.

Just a point for the triumphalist Brexiteers, I don't like the Johnson Government and their serial incompetence during the pandemic, that does not make me want to shut parliament. Similarly some EU officials did some stupid things, I still believe that on balance we would be better off in the EU and that we will rejoin.
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Does not look sorted to me. Just an agreement about the NI bit.

I feel there is still some negotiation to take place. The implication is that the EU now has a tool to reduce or pause Pfizer deliveries to the UK. If the UK does not agree to a compromise about UK manufactured AZ vaccines. Guess we will have to see how this plays out.

Of course, both sides want the best for their own people.

A compromise would be sensible to ensure that 2nd vaccines of the right type are available at the right time. For people who have had a first vaccination by now. Across Europe and the UK.
 
It will get bottomed out, things were getting too heated and very, very quickly escalating. There's been wars over less (and no I don't think it would have came to that).

I think the ultimate result of this will be:
UK gets its own vaccines so it can do it's top 9 groups or whatever it was, the 14m by mid Feb, which in all likelihood has either already been made, or is being made next week, for use next week and the week after. Then after that our AZ vaccines will drop by about 50%, to help the EU and take some pressure off AZ. I would expect that none of the vaccines we give up would go to Germany, as they're not using it on over 65's (but they may go back on that).

Once our 14m are done, then that will take a massive portion of our potential deaths and hospital admissions away, even more so in the month after to build immunity.

It's in our interests to not go t*t for tat (as nobody wins in that scenario) and we will still need continue to get Pfizer vaccines and AZ's vaccine supplies from the EU, not disrupted.
 
Andy_W said:
It will get bottomed out, things were getting too heated and very, very quickly escalating. There's been wars over less (and no I don't think it would have came to that).

I think the ultimate result of this will be:
UK gets its own vaccines so it can do it's top 9 groups or whatever it was, the 14m by mid Feb, which in all likelihood has either already been made, or is being made next week, for use next week and the week after. Then after that our AZ vaccines will drop by about 50%, to help the EU and take some pressure off AZ. I would expect that none of the vaccines we give up would go to Germany, as they're not using it on over 65's (but they may go back on that).

Once our 14m are done, then that will take a massive portion of our potential deaths and hospital admissions away, even more so in the month after to build immunity.

It's in our interests to not go t*t for tat (as nobody wins in that scenario) and we will still need continue to get Pfizer vaccines and AZ's vaccine supplies from the EU, not disrupted.
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The EU contract says AZ are to fulfill the order by the end of the first Q which is 31st of March. We should keep out of it and continue what we’re doing. I said all along that once we are finished we should offer our help but not before.
 
Andy_W said:
It will get bottomed out, things were getting too heated and very, very quickly escalating. There's been wars over less (and no I don't think it would have came to that).

I think the ultimate result of this will be:
UK gets its own vaccines so it can do it's top 9 groups or whatever it was, the 14m by mid Feb, which in all likelihood has either already been made, or is being made next week, for use next week and the week after. Then after that our AZ vaccines will drop by about 50%, to help the EU and take some pressure off AZ. I would expect that none of the vaccines we give up would go to Germany, as they're not using it on over 65's (but they may go back on that).

Once our 14m are done, then that will take a massive portion of our potential deaths and hospital admissions away, even more so in the month after to build immunity.

It's in our interests to not go t*t for tat (as nobody wins in that scenario) and we will still need continue to get Pfizer vaccines and AZ's vaccine supplies from the EU, not disrupted.
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Looks like EU has come to their senses and confirm that no export controls on any company providing they fulfilling contractual obligations
 
Colin Warnek said:
Plenty in this country would love to bend over backwards for these people. Now they show their true colours.
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Agreed. They really are the ultimate hypocrites. Given us grief for4 years about how sacrosanct the border is (and it is) and then within a month have imposed hard border. Even Barnier seems embarrassed by their hypocrisy
 
Hicktonpen10 said:
Looks like EU has come to their senses and confirm that no export controls on any company providing they fulfilling contractual obligations
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They are also saying Pfizer has to meet their agreed contractual arrangements with the EU first. That implies a potential reduction for the UK in the short term.

That is why I feel some deal will be done. As @Andy_W suggests.
 
Londons_Moggie said:
The EU contract says AZ are to fulfill the order by the end of the first Q which is 31st of March. We should keep out of it and continue what we’re doing. I said all along that once we are finished we should offer our help but not before.
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It's not going to work like that, contracts don't work like that, if AZ just help us, and don't help the EU and has a contract with the EU then there will end up being no AZ (which is partly Swedish) as this would destroy them, especially more so seeing as this is all not for profit.

There's a company at the bottom of this which a lot of people seem to be forgetting, and they seemingly have the most control (or most effect), so are actually at the top of this, where as everyone's acting like we have the most control, we don't.

The EU has to accept that there will be a slower delivery of their order, and they will, but all they're doing now is trying to contractually defend their position, which is exactly what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot.
 
Londons_Moggie said:
Even the most ardent Remainer and every EU citizen will now have some seeds of doubt sewn after this monumental fcuk up. I sense the start of the end for them.

Even The Spectator are running stories by remainers about how awkward this whole episode has proven to be for them. The Spectator
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They've not really "fcucked up" though, they've took about 4 weeks longer to approve the vaccine for use, we approved it early as we were desperate. Now all they are doing is trying to ensure that the contract gets fulfilled, they've made a couple of mistakes with that, but in contract situations people often "over defend", then settle back to get to what they want.

The problems seem to be with delivery/ manufacture delays, which are not really the EU's fault. They're not AZ's fault, and not the UK's fault either. It's just a collective problem, that needs to be solved, they happen on every major contract.

They believe they have a contract which should be fulfilled and AZ will want to fulfil it as best they can (and the EU have made a much larger order than us, and are partly an EU based company), the UK have a competing contract which we also want filled.

There will be a compromise, after everyone has flexed their muscles, that's the basics of it.

The main reason for the collective EU order was to stop competing countries, and vaccine wars, our break away and the complex Ireland situation hasn't helped this along with the EU trying to close that door, especially with the timing of it with brexit etc.
 
Andy_W said:
They've not really "fcucked up" though, they've took about 4 weeks longer to approve the vaccine for use, we approved it early as we were desperate. Now all they are doing is trying to ensure that the contract gets fulfilled, they've made a couple of mistakes with that, but in contract situations people often "over defend", then settle back to get to what they want.

The problems seem to be with delivery/ manufacture delays, which are not really the EU's fault. They're not AZ's fault, and not the UK's fault either. It's just a collective problem, that needs to be solved, they happen on every major contract.

They believe they have a contract which should be fulfilled and AZ will want to fulfil it as best they can (and the EU have made a much larger order than us, and are partly an EU based company), the UK have a competing contract which we also want filled.

There will be a compromise, after everyone has flexed their muscles, that's the basics of it.
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They've fcuked up the whole vaccine rollout from procurement to distribution and lost the moral high ground over the Irish border to Johnson's government. A truly epic failure, that will have serious repercussions for them.
 
They, AZ, the UK and the EU need to sit down and sort this out. We should be able to compromise on our position when we have sufficient doses to get the over 65's vaccinated.

I get that each nation, first and foremost has to look after it's citizens, but flag waving nationalism has no place when people are dying, particularly when it is avoidable.

We, the world, should be looking at how best we can distribute the vaccine around the globe to save the most lives internationally. If the UK want to be world leaders, then force the EU to the negotiating table for a fairer distribution of vaccines around the globe.

The EU have acted terribly under the circumstances with punative UK punishment for no real reason I can see. Their fight is with AZ, not the UK people.

The whole thing is short sighted and damaging to the people of earth.
 
Laughing said:
The EU have acted terribly under the circumstances with punative UK punishment for no real reason I can see. Their fight is with AZ, not the UK people.
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I really do not get this part of what you are saying.

So it was OK for the UK to threaten the EU with a breach of international law during the recent Brexit negotiations.

Then you say it is wrong for the EU to control the distribution of vaccines from factories within their area? To attempt to get delivered what they contracted for.

This seems like double standards to me.

For me the Ireland threat from the EU was on a level with what the UK did with international law. They used something that was wrong to try to strengthen their negotiating position.
 
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