Electric cars Depreciation

[Andy_W]

The big problem with the evangelists is that they don't accept that everyone has different circumstances. There's some very bad advice been given that could potentially cost someone a lot of money.

A major example of this is the Andy poster who a couple of years ago was waxing lyrical about how such good value the Porsche Taycan was. Despite been warned numerous times, he maintained that the Taycan could be purchased at effectively a similar price as a much less expensive vehicle. This was done by using depreciation levels that existed in a car market bubble. Of course, a bubble is a bubble - and some basic research will tell you how the Taycan has fared since.

I've said a hundred times that people who can't home charge, or people who want an old car should probably not get an EV. Some still even manage fine doing that like ST, as he's got access to easy charging elsewhere.

You don't accept that others have different budgets, % of earnings or actual, whether they want an ICE or EV, or anything else.
You don't accept that 99% don't drive a 400 mile round trip every day/ week, without stopping for a pi$$, and don't have their ICE car filled up by the fairies, and also pay for the fuel.
You don't acknowledge that every day my car has a min 250 mile range, if I want it (more than most people getting into their ICE, I expect), and it cost me about 2p per mile in fuel, other EV's are similar.
You don't accept I've spent far less time wasted "filling" up, than an ICE driver, and most EV owners are the same if they actually think about it.
You don't acknowledge that ICE cars are depreciating at the same rate, and a lot worse in most cases, for comparable cars (see my taycan v panamera comparison above).

I've yet to be given an example where a comparable ICE car costs less in TCO than an EV, I've demonstrated the other way around about 100 times. There's a reason why the majority of people who switch to EV's are sticking that way. Sure there will be others who get it wrong, usually those not particularly tech savvy, those who are crap at maths, or those who don't like change or tech.

For a comparable ICE car I've saved a fortune, I've demonstrated this a hundred times, and it's just as true now as it was back then, and is certain to be true for the next year until I've the option to hand it back or buy it outright. Like I've also said a hundred times, I only spent as much as I did as the car has practically 0% BIK and is tax deductible anyway. It's impossible to beat that with a new/ newer comparable ICE car, for me personally it's worked out probably cheaper than an ICE car which cost half as much. The benefits to business or company car owners is massive, but still private users save a lot TCO.

 

[Soutra]

Nobody needs a 400 mile range car when you can charge a 300 mile range car in 15 minutes at 350kW, which tech is there already.

If only it was. There are 14 Ionity charging places in the UK at the moment. 350kW charging is really rare.

Saying that nobody needs a 400 mile range electric car is just weaseling round the problem. If I travel from Edinburgh to the South East of England, I really don't want to arrive and then immediately start looking for a charging point. And on weekends, and in the summer, charging points tend to be very busy. Seeing a queue at the charger, and deciding to travel on to the next services is not an option. That will be be busy too.

EV is great around town, and short distances, but having to plan logistics for longer trips is just not feasible, not desirable, not reassuring. And dwindling sales of EVs pretty much confirms that people want longer range cars, the charging infrastructure is poor, and there's no appreciable cost saving when aren't charging at home.

 

[ThePrisoner]

I've yet to be given an example where a comparable ICE car costs less in TCO than an EV, I've demonstrated the other way around about 100 times.

But you finance your car as part of a business don't you? With all the financial benefits that attracts. Benefits that 90% of the population cannot obtain. You are in the techbro/minted businessman demographic. Vast majority are not.

I just listened to an EV debate on the radio. The only proponents in favour of EVs were those in the top 10% demographic: a minted retired mechanic who sold his top of the range ICE Range Rover on a whim for an EV MG but who didn't like the low range on that so sold it after thirty days for a high end Kia EV; a business women who says her expensive EV is fine though there is a problem with re-charging outside of the M25 .

EVs are still only feasible for businesses, techbros and retired boomers with too much pension.

I did not realise there is still a mandate that 80% of UK vehicle manufacturers output must be EV by 2030. Obviously not a hope in hell that will happen though clearly the government will bin the requirement in a year or two anyway.

 

[Redpete]

The heating up the batteries is a feature on the Tesla to help with charging. It's not like you have to stop and do anything; you just put in where you're going to charge and the car automatically does it.

Which we discovered eventually, but usually his Mrs did it whilst he drives.
It took me 15 minutes and some googling to discover it. I know now though.

 

[BoroMart]

Saying that nobody needs a 400 mile range electric car is just weaseling round the problem. If I travel from Edinburgh to the South East of England, I really don't want to arrive and then immediately start looking for a charging point. And on weekends, and in the summer, charging points tend to be very busy. Seeing a queue at the charger, and deciding to travel on to the next services is not an option. That will be be busy too.

Your average person would stop twice en route anyway....plus that use case applies to about 0.001% of the population as a journey done more than once a year.

If I drove from south east to Edinburgh, it's nearly 9 hours. I'd stop at Grantham and recharge, eat and wee. I'd stop again at Washington, same again. Arrive at Edinburgh with enough charge to see me through and back to washington. Then back to granthem and back home.

But this is a once a year type of journey, and if I did it in an ICE, I'd stop twice as well.

 

[BoroMart]

Which we discovered eventually, but usually his Mrs did it whilst he drives.
It took me 15 minutes and some googling to discover it. I know now though.

really, I mean, all you do is type your destination into the sat nav and it works it all out for you, works out where you need to recharge and pre-conditions the batteries for you....no googling required, it's pretty self explanatory. I mean who doesn't use a sat nav on a long journey anyway? They've overstated the 'complexity'.

 

[JustTheGent]

I've said a hundred times that people who can't home charge, or people who want an old car should probably not get an EV. Some still even manage fine doing that like ST, as he's got access to easy charging elsewhere.

You don't accept that others have different budgets, % of earnings or actual, whether they want an ICE or EV, or anything else.
You don't accept that 99% don't drive a 400 mile round trip every day/ week, without stopping for a pi$$, and don't have their ICE car filled up by the fairies, and also pay for the fuel.
You don't acknowledge that every day my car has a min 250 mile range, if I want it (more than most people getting into their ICE, I expect), and it cost me about 2p per mile in fuel, other EV's are similar.
You don't accept I've spent far less time wasted "filling" up, than an ICE driver, and most EV owners are the same if they actually think about it.
You don't acknowledge that ICE cars are depreciating at the same rate, and a lot worse in most cases, for comparable cars (see my taycan v panamera comparison above).

I've yet to be given an example where a comparable ICE car costs less in TCO than an EV, I've demonstrated the other way around about 100 times. There's a reason why the majority of people who switch to EV's are sticking that way. Sure there will be others who get it wrong, usually those not particularly tech savvy, those who are crap at maths, or those who don't like change or tech.

For a comparable ICE car I've saved a fortune, I've demonstrated this a hundred times, and it's just as true now as it was back then, and is certain to be true for the next year until I've the option to hand it back or buy it outright. Like I've also said a hundred times, I only spent as much as I did as the car has practically 0% BIK and is tax deductible anyway. It's impossible to beat that with a new/ newer comparable ICE car, for me personally it's worked out probably cheaper than an ICE car which cost half as much. The benefits to business or company car owners is massive, but still private users save a lot TCO.

This is what I'm talking about, you're right and everyone else is wrong. With regards to your Taycan, if you wanted to move it on - what would you actually do? The goalposts have moved from a couple of years ago. The calculations you were making a couple of years ago proved not to be viable. Now you're switching and saying different things.

Below is a video that has been posted before about someone in the industry switching to diesel from EV. But no doubt you'll choose to ignore their opinion/circumstances and say they're wrong

 

[SmallTown]

That is exactly it. As I said to the Mrs re my trip in the Tesla to QPR it was all a bit of a faff he even had to heat up the batteries on route to prepare for the charging then dont park next to someone on a joint charger as its slows down the charging.

I think EV'S are great for short regular journeys assuming you have a drive and can charge at home.
It will take a lot to convince many older drivers to change over.

It isn't a faf, it does it automatically and the have fixed the shared power problem now. It's only on v2 superchargers (the ones with 2 cables).

There's also A TONNE of source London AC chargers in Shepherds bush, why didn't you charge there whislst at the match

 

[SmallTown]

Saying that nobody needs a 400 mile range electric car is just weaseling round the problem.

It isn't it's just a truism. The anti EV crowd will always find an extreme scenario to "prove" you can't use EV day to day (see my other exmaple about people always comparing charging prices by always using the most expensive chargers as a comparison.

The proof of this being: if you go back a few years the same people saying they need a 400 mile range were saying they need a 300 mile range as few EV did that. Now EV, including hopefully my next one, have hit the 400 mile range target I can guarantee people will be "needing" 500 miles of range. Sure as night follows day. It's not what they need, they don't know what they need, it's just an attempt to create a scenario they think EV can't do. It ignores day to day ownership of 99% of drivers

 

[SmallTown]

EVs are still only feasible for businesses, techbros and retired boomers with too much pension.

This is utterly, patently false. Unless you can cite your reasoning?

 

[SE4 Red]

Before I got my EV I had all the anxieties about range and charging on long journeys but in reality it hasn't been a problem. I've used it for holidays in the Peak District and depths of Northumberland. I regularly do journeys over to the north west, and I will be going up to Scottish borders in it for a weekend soon but that's not a concern as a quick look at the map tells me there are a number of chargers in the closest village to where I'm staying. What's the issue ?

There's no getting around public motorway rapid charging is expensive but I've very rarely had to use it.

 

[Nano]

If only it was. There are 14 Ionity charging places in the UK at the moment. 350kW charging is really rare.

Saying that nobody needs a 400 mile range electric car is just weaseling round the problem. If I travel from Edinburgh to the South East of England, I really don't want to arrive and then immediately start looking for a charging point. And on weekends, and in the summer, charging points tend to be very busy. Seeing a queue at the charger, and deciding to travel on to the next services is not an option. That will be be busy too.

EV is great around town, and short distances, but having to plan logistics for longer trips is just not feasible, not desirable, not reassuring. And dwindling sales of EVs pretty much confirms that people want longer range cars, the charging infrastructure is poor, and there's no appreciable cost saving when aren't charging at home.

I have an EV and my lease is running out soon and I'll be buying another. However, charging when on long journeys is a pain in the **** and one that just doesn't happen with an ICE. It is undeniable and if any EV owner thinks it isn't then they either have only driven a Tesla with their private charging infrastructure and/or they have never travelled with children. When travelling long distance, particularly with kids it isn't always convenient to stop. If I wanted to go to a home match (I live 120 miles away) I wouldn't be able to destination charge so I would have to add a stop into the return journey when I wouldn't really want to. When travelling to friends or family I have yet to go to someone's house who also has an EV so I can charge at their house. I have had to take time out of my visit to go and sit somewhere to charge or add a stop that I don't want to do on the way home. We have family that live quite far away and we used to finish work on a Friday and drive down and get there late and now we have to add an extra 45 mins on for a charge. We went on holiday to Cornwall and had to plan our week around charging the car. Most of those stops, especially with children, are in places where you end up spending money on food/drink to give you something to do to pass the time.

With an ICE you don't even think about it. It never even crosses your mind but with an EV you have to plan ahead and add in inconveniences that you don't want to do.

I am still getting an EV for my next car because the benefits still comfortably outweigh the negatives.

EVs are still only feasible for businesses, techbros and retired boomers with too much pension.

The NHS staff lease scheme makes owning an EV really affordable and that's thousands of people that aren't on massive wages.

 

[BoroMart]

I have an EV and my lease is running out soon and I'll be buying another. However, charging when on long journeys is a pain in the **** and one that just doesn't happen with an ICE. It is undeniable

I can't say it's had any significant impact. If I drive to the north east, I stop once en route for 20mins or so and once on the way back to Kent. I'll use local chargers while in the north east and yes, over the course of a weekend I might waste 20 mins at most. I'd have had to fill my old ICE car up before setting off and maybe on the way back anyway. I'd have also had to stop for coffee/food/toilet in an ICE on that same journey. It's no biggy on major motorway journeys.

When travelling long distance, particularly with kids it isn't always convenient to stop.

Yeah because kids are famous for never needing to go for a pee while on the motorway this is just another of those nitpicking scenarios that could sometimes, occasionally be a pain. It isn't perfect, there are individually scenarios where it's more of a pain, there are also regular scenarios where it isn't, I charge at home, like many EV drivers do, no trips to the petrol station, I'm saving serious time and money not needing to do that over the course of a year.

With an ICE you don't even think about it. It never even crosses your mind but with an EV you have to plan ahead and add in inconveniences that you don't want to do.

Yes, there is sometimes a bit of planning needed, but it isn't the massive inconvenience it's being made out to be.

 

[Soutra]

The proof of this being: if you go back a few years the same people saying they need a 400 mile range were saying they need a 300 mile range as few EV did that. Now EV, including hopefully my next one, have hit the 400 mile range target I can guarantee people will be "needing" 500 miles of range. Sure as night follows day. It's not what they need, they don't know what they need, it's just an attempt to create a scenario they think EV can't do. It ignores day to day ownership of 99% of drivers

No, that's not the case. 400 miles is the gamechanger. If there's an EV that does 400 miles on a single charge in real world bad weather, people will buy it. 500 miles is not a gamechanger. Hardly anyone would find that is a deal clincher.

My EV is supposed to do 320 miles but it really only does 290. 260 in winter. Longer trips - which I do at least once a month are just too complex and difficult in my EV, so back to diesel for me.

 

[ThePrisoner]

Are you going to argue with Patrick Boyle, the head of Toyota, James May and a minted bloke who has his own solar farm but has still decided to ditch his EV? Methinks not.

 

[SmallTown]

No, that's not the case. 400 miles is the gamechanger. If there's an EV that does 400 miles on a single charge in real world bad weather, people will buy it. 500 miles is not a gamechanger. Hardly anyone would find that is a deal clincher.

My EV is supposed to do 320 miles but it really only does 290. 260 in winter. Longer trips - which I do at least once a month are just too complex and difficult in my EV, so back to diesel for

I’m sorry but that’s patently untrue. Why is 400 miles the thing to aim for? When it was 300 miles three years ago apparently. Also I notice you’re now talking about bad weather and real world conditions. See how it works? You’ve ALREADY changed the goalposts now I’ve pointed out that 400 mile EV exist. It’s how it works. I’ve had enough anti EV conversations to know how this game plays out. You’ll ALWAYS invent scenarios that the EV can’t make. Until it can. Then you’ll adjust the parameters.
So I’ll ask again, why is 400 miles the aim?

 

[SmallTown]

Are you going to argue with Patrick Boyle, the head of Toyota, James May and a minted bloke who has his own solar farm but has still decided to ditch his EV? Methinks not.

Not sure who you are talking to but the boss of Toyota? Do you not think the boss of the car company that’s struggled the most with the adoption EV and failed to make a decent one has a vested interest in trying to bash them? And James May? He’d be using steam cars if he could. I don’t know the other guy but this is a bit desperate. Even for the usual desperate anti EV arguments

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

Are you going to argue with Patrick Boyle, the head of Toyota, James May and a minted bloke who has his own solar farm but has still decided to ditch his EV? Methinks not.

Yeah I always consult rich millionaires that work for car companies before looking at what works best for me.

Are you JustTheGent? Air fryers, Smart meters, octopus, EV's - dont think I've seen anyone else on here pick such a unique set of issues to be against.

 

[ThePrisoner]

Not sure who you are talking to but the boss of Toyota? Do you not think the boss of the car company that’s struggled the most with the adoption EV and failed to make a decent one has a vested interest in trying to bash them? And James May? He’d be using steam cars if he could. I don’t know the other guy but this is a bit desperate. Even for the usual desperate anti EV arguments

I must say I am intrigued as to why Toyota has not produced an EV. Do you really think they are less capable than other car makers? They seem to put their money into hybrids.

May has had a bunch of EVs. Currently rocking a Tesla apparently. As well as a hatful of ICEs of course.

 

[SmallTown]

I must say I am intrigued as to why Toyota has not produced an EV. Do you really think they are less capable than other car makers? They seem to put their money into hybrids.

May has had a bunch of EVs. Currently rocking a Tesla apparently. As well as a hatful of ICEs of course.

They started with hybrids when it was the right idea. Now they seem too deep down the path. Most manufacturers are struggling but none as bad as them