Andy McDonald resigns from shadow cabinet

[bear66]

So what was he suggesting?

The opposite. It's called satire.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Labour conference: Andy McDonald resigns from shadow cabinet, saying party ‘more divided’ under Starmer – as it happened

MP stands down from post as shadow secretary of state for employment rights after saying he was ordered to argue against increase to minimum wage

www.theguardian.com

Announcements like the £15 per hour minimum wage are what keeps Labour in opposition. Starmer is trying to win the country, not the party.

Everyone wants higher wages but putting a figure on it like £15 a hour just makes Labour look like the crazies are still in control.

Shameful that Andy McDonald has made it all about him - the country is falling apart around us and he's keeping the headlines away from that.

 

[FatCat]

The opposite. It's called satire.

Oh a bit early in the morning for me

 

[FatCat]

Do Labour need to split? It feels like with all the issues surrounding the conservatives at the moment around policies and corruption there is a huge chance for them to make some in roads. Yet their showpiece event is marred by infighting as far as I can see and they are making the headlines for all the wrong reasons. You would think they never had a better opportunity than now but seem to be shooting themselves in the foot whilst they have an open goal staring at them.

 

[BoroFur]

Do Labour need to split? It feels like with all the issues surrounding the conservatives at the moment around policies and corruption there is a huge chance for them to make some in roads. Yet their showpiece event is marred by infighting as far as I can see and they are making the headlines for all the wrong reasons. You would think they never had a better opportunity than now but seem to be shooting themselves in the foot whilst they have an open goal staring at them.

It's always the left of the party. It's like they have a competition between themselves as to who can cause the biggest stink.

 

[Laughing]

Do you remember the days of Family Credit? - I worked with semi skilled people on an electronics production line getting £2/hour in 1993 (before tax). If they had several kids and their partner did not work they ended up with more in Family credit as wages. FC was paid by the government. I felt employers who paid little were getting big subsidies. It was not good for the worker who felt undervalued by his/her employer.

Ref Corporate sector - Employers come in all shapes and sizes. Many like care homes are only just making a profit for the owner/s to live on. To me its about balance.

If your full time salaried staff have to be subsidised by the tax payer you have an unsustainable business model and deserve to go bust.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Do Labour need to split? It feels like with all the issues surrounding the conservatives at the moment around policies and corruption there is a huge chance for them to make some in roads. Yet their showpiece event is marred by infighting as far as I can see and they are making the headlines for all the wrong reasons. You would think they never had a better opportunity than now but seem to be shooting themselves in the foot whilst they have an open goal staring at them.

It's so frustrating. It's like they are bitter and are trying their best to sully the new leadership. If only they could pinch their noses for a short while and unite. The Tories are really on the back foot atm - Brexit is unravelling pretty quickly but all Labour can do is bitch at each other and turn the headlines on themselves.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

It's £30k a year full time CtC.
What do you give a supermarket manager when the till operator earns more than you?

I'm all for aspiration but to go from £8.91 to £15 is extreme.

Why would the manager be paid less?

We need a levelling off of of the wages across society, the range is far too wide.

£30k minimum would give the economy the boost its needed, together with progressive taxation, a reasonable threshold and escalating rates as salaries increase, same for corporation tax/profit.

An increase in household income at the lower end such as this will see less pressure in social services and the NHS making savings too, as the burden of those at the bottom of the scale from carrying the rest of us us relieved.

 

[MolteniArcore]

If your full time salaried staff have to be subsidised by the tax payer you have an unsustainable business model and deserve to go bust.

Sometimes though you get the Tax Credits / UC because you have a lot of kids. The wages might be fine for someone with 1 kid - but if you have 3 you might get a top up.

It's not as simple as just saying: "Get UC when working? That job deserves to go."

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

It's so frustrating. It's like they are bitter and are trying their best to sully the new leadership. If only they could pinch their noses for a short while and unite. The Tories are really on the back foot atm - Brexit is unravelling pretty quickly but all Labour can do is bitch at each other and turn the headlines on themselves.

It's as if certain factions, some involved in the discrimination charges in the run up to the last election, are doing it on purpose!

 

[Abel Tasman]

Why would the manager be paid less?

We need a levelling off of of the wages across society, the range is far too wide.

£30k minimum would give the economy the boost its needed, together with progressive taxation, a reasonable threshold and escalating rates as salaries increase, same for corporation tax/profit.

An increase in household income at the lower end such as this will see less pressure in social services and the NHS making savings too, as the burden of those at the bottom of the scale from carrying the rest of us us relieved.

CtC admirable though your utopian world is re salaries - to create a huge wage inflation bubble would bring the economy crashing down. Businesses wouldn’t be able to afford to pay - increasing their demand for liquidity which in turn would lead to borrowing and debt and then inflation. Businesses go to the wall, unemployment rises and Interest rates start to rise, mortgages default etc etc. You’re no fool and you probably know this but simply hiking wages isn’t so simple.

 

[Laughing]

Sometimes though you get the Tax Credits / UC because you have a lot of kids. The wages might be fine for someone with 1 kid - but if you have 3 you might get a top up.

It's not as simple as just saying: "Get UC when working? That job deserves to go."

No its not quite that simple but it very nearly is. If as tax players we are subsidising corporate profit and that includes the lowest earners then something has to change. I would imagine a proper living wage and family allowance, its that even a thing anymore, would make up the difference.

In any event, people having too many kids isn't an argument to keep wages low.

 

[Laughing]

CtC admirable though your utopian world is re salaries - to create a huge wage inflation bubble would bring the economy crashing down. Businesses wouldn’t be able to afford to pay - increasing their demand for liquidity which in turn would lead to borrowing and debt and then inflation. Businesses go to the wall, unemployment rises and Interest rates start to rise, mortgages default etc etc. You’re no fool and you probably know this but simply hiking wages isn’t so simple.

Also doing nothing whilst families are going Hungary because the problem is not simple isn't an answer.

There are a few people turning into tories on this thread. Equality for all... Hang on 15 quid an hour for shelf fillers.. **** equality if my Warburton goes up.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

CtC admirable though your utopian world is re salaries - to create a huge wage inflation bubble would bring the economy crashing down. Businesses wouldn’t be able to afford to pay - increasing their demand for liquidity which in turn would lead to borrowing and debt and then inflation. Businesses go to the wall, unemployment rises and Interest rates start to rise, mortgages default etc etc. You’re no fool and you probably know this but simply hiking wages isn’t so simple.

Not if it's both planned correctly and government subsidies for a lengthy period until it settles. It's got to be the long term solution to move the country forward.

The economy isn't exactly doing well at the moment, you can't see the pig sty that the nation is becoming from over there. The demands on public service due to the national imbalance is frightening. The pace at which town centres are turning into boarded up hovels is due to such short term thinking.

People deserve a better way of life, we can't simply jump from one short term fix failure to another while the suffering and burden continue.

 

[MolteniArcore]

No its not quite that simple but it very nearly is. If as tax players we are subsidising corporate profit and that includes the lowest earners then something has to change. I would imagine a proper living wage and family allowance, its that even a thing anymore, would make up the difference.

In any event, people having too many kids isn't an argument to keep wages low.

So corporate profit is bad but if they were on the same wage or the same job as the private sector but working for a local authority they were ok to get the Tax Credits? For example an admin officer, receptionist, customer service advisor?

 

[MolteniArcore]

There are a few people turning into tories on this thread. Equality for all... Hang on 15 quid an hour for shelf fillers.. **** equality if my Warburton goes up.

I'm not sure that anyone has an issue with the principle that the minimum wage could be £15 an hour. The issue is can you sell that to the electorate?

I struggle to see how it benefits the Labour Party to vote through a specific pound value at conference that could be used against them.

What they should be voting on it increasing the national mimimim wage every year.

Starmer needs to sell Labour to the country, not the party.

(Just look how Labour supporters are digging up that McDonalds post... the Tories will do much worse to the party is they stick to the £15 an hours. The free broadband pledge at the last election was a good one but it got ripped a new one by Tories and the media - don't give them the ammunition this time and so early.)

 

[Laughing]

I'm not sure that anyone has an issue with the principle that the minimum wage could be £15 an hour. The issue is can you sell that to the electorate?

I struggle to see how it benefits the Labour Party to vote through a specific pound value at conference that could be used against them.

What they should be voting on it increasing the national mimimim wage every year.

Starmer needs to sell Labour to the country, not the party.

(Just look how Labour supporters are digging up that McDonalds post... the Tories will do much worse to the party is they stick to the £15 an hours. The free broadband pledge at the last election was a good one but it got ripped a new one by Tories and the media - don't give them the ammunition this time and so early.)

No you probably can't sell 15 quid an hour to the electorate your right there.

There is nothing wrong with the principle though.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

I'm not sure that anyone has an issue with the principle that the minimum wage could be £15 an hour. The issue is can you sell that to the electorate?

I struggle to see how it benefits the Labour Party to vote through a specific pound value at conference that could be used against them.

What they should be voting on it increasing the national mimimim wage every year.

Starmer needs to sell Labour to the country, not the party.

(Just look how Labour supporters are digging up that McDonalds post... the Tories will do much worse to the party is they stick to the £15 an hours. The free broadband pledge at the last election was a good one but it got ripped a new one by Tories and the media - don't give them the ammunition this time and so early.)

Yes you're right, the electorate will respond to a headline, it's all part of the dumbing down process that was kicked off in the early 80s.

 

[SuperStu]

It's always the left of the party. It's like they have a competition between themselves as to who can cause the biggest stink.

It's so frustrating. It's like they are bitter and are trying their best to sully the new leadership. If only they could pinch their noses for a short while and unite.

none so blind.

It wasn't the left that came to conference with a load of internal process changes for factional reasons. It was Starmer.

The left haven't forced the party to drop policies like nationalising energy or taxing the richest more. Policies that every current MP was elected on in the last manifesto and that Starmer pledged himself to in the leadership election. It was Starmer.

If people really want a united party it can't happen via always monstering the faction you don't like.

 

[Laughing]

Toynbee in the guardian has a very different take on the party conference saying it is so far a big success. For what that's worth.