1930s Germany has arrived in the UK

[BlindBoyGrunt]

There may be a lot of misinformation out there but technological advances mean that the scale of brainwashing that took place in Germany will not be replicated, hence the hyperbole comment.

On the contrary, brainwashing is far more sophisticated now. The algorithms on sites like facebook can target even individual people according to their tastes, and guide them to the echo chambers of people who have already gone down that particular rabbit hole.

 

[RoaryTheLion]

On the contrary, brainwashing is far more sophisticated now. The algorithms on sites like facebook can target even individual people according to their tastes, and guide them to the echo chambers of people who have already gone down that particular rabbit hole.

I agree with you. My point is that you need to brainwash a gigantic amount of people for fascism to take over a country. Globalisation and connectivity means that other outlets and points of view are always available. If the U.K. started to restrict internet access then I’d concede there was a lurch towards genuine fascism. In my opinion, it’s lack of choice that is paramount to reshaping ideology. If your tastes can be subverted to supporting extremist views then you lack critical thinking skills. Fascists gonna fascist or whatever. Not sure if that works as a verb but it’ll do.

 

[SmallTown]

Youse are no different from those Americans who cry communism every time someone mentions universal healthcare.

Absolutely incorrect

 

[HarryVegas]

DoubleSpeak, you say...?

 

[BiggEggo]

A peaceful albeit noisy protestor attracting 10+ police officers. That is not policing by consent. That's plain embarrassing. Any wonder the force has just been placed in special measures for a string of serious abject failures.

Andrea Leadsom complaining of his violent behaviour. I hope he sues her.

it's beginning to look a lot like fascism.

 

[JonnyHistory]

Or perhaps have a sense of perspective and some knowledge of history. If you want parallels with the 1930s you'll find them in Russia.

As a graduate of history, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that America and the UK are all in a quasi-fascist state at the minute. Russia, is more authoritarian than fascist and the term fascist and its meaning is very contentious in of itself; there is no one accepted definition in a modern context. What is clear is that minority far-right ideology is being implemented on both sides of the Atlantic and civil liberties are being eroded as the states are assuming more power.

In America the libertarian billionaires, the far-right and perhaps to a greater extent the evangelical-right, have infiltrated every level of the courts, bought off and have assumed roles as senators and are pushing their agenda. We can see this in action with Roe vs Wade, the GOP have bided their time, loaded the court with enough hacks, and now they are going after hard fought for rights. First for women, next will be homosexuals and trans people. America is in danger of democratic regression and the walk to fascism from their current position is not as big a leap as you think.

The UK has different issues, what is happening here is a dismantling of the state; control of media, and again civil liberties being restricted under law (all whilst breaking the law themselves through policy and legislation), PM breaking the ministerial code and rewriting rules to be more favourable after and of course curtailing the power of unions. This is a clear regression in standard and a clear far-right populist ideology driving it all. If we continue on this path (and there is no signs of them slowing up) again we are not as far away from a similar situation as saw in Germany. They play culture war politics in the media to keep people distracted from this horrific dismantling of the state and to an extent society itself but the dismantling is happening.

Just ask yourself one question, where do you think the end point is for this current government on their current trajectory? You don't need that much of the vote (especially after gerrymandering the boundaries) to win a majority, most of the press are behind their ideology and are one of the biggest factors in low-information's voters decisions. They could win, and this is just the start.... we are not as far away as you think.

 

[Warwickboro]

As a graduate of history, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that America and the UK are all in a quasi-fascist state at the minute. Russia, is more authoritarian than fascist and the term fascist and its meaning is very contentious in of itself; there is no one accepted definition in a modern context. What is clear is that minority far-right ideology is being implemented on both sides of the Atlantic and civil liberties are being eroded as the states are assuming more power.

In America the libertarian billionaires, the far-right and perhaps to a greater extent the evangelical-right, have infiltrated every level of the courts, bought off and have assumed roles as senators and are pushing their agenda. We can see this in action with Roe vs Wade, the GOP have bided their time, loaded the court with enough hacks, and now they are going after hard fought for rights. First for women, next will be homosexuals and trans people. America is in danger of democratic regression and the walk to fascism from their current position is not as big a leap as you think.

The UK has different issues, what is happening here is a dismantling of the state; control of media, and again civil liberties being restricted under law (all whilst breaking the law themselves through policy and legislation), PM breaking the ministerial code and rewriting rules to be more favourable after and of course curtailing the power of unions. This is a clear regression in standard and a clear far-right populist ideology driving it all. If we continue on this path (and there is no signs of them slowing up) again we are not as far away from a similar situation as saw in Germany. They play culture war politics in the media to keep people distracted from this horrific dismantling of the state and to an extent society itself but the dismantling is happening.

Just ask yourself one question, where do you think the end point is for this current government on their current trajectory? You don't need that much of the vote (especially after gerrymandering the boundaries) to win a majority, most of the press are behind their ideology and are one of the biggest factors in low-information's voters decisions. They could win, and this is just the start.... we are not as far away as you think.

Well thebend point Will be the next general election l, unless you honestly believe they will totally dismantle democratic vote system prior to that? I thinknwr have a terrible government, but I also think we will simply replace them in 2 years and move on

 

[JonnyHistory]

As a graduate of history, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that America and the UK are all in a quasi-fascist state at the minute. Russia, is more authoritarian than fascist and the term fascist and its meaning is very contentious in of itself; there is no one accepted definition in a modern context. What is clear is that minority far-right ideology is being implemented on both sides of the Atlantic and civil liberties are being eroded as the states are assuming more power.

In America the libertarian billionaires, the far-right and perhaps to a greater extent the evangelical-right, have infiltrated every level of the courts, bought off and have assumed roles as senators and are pushing their agenda. We can see this in action with Roe vs Wade, the GOP have bided their time, loaded the court with enough hacks, and now they are going after hard fought for rights. First for women, next will be homosexuals and trans people. America is in danger of democratic regression and the walk to fascism from their current position is not as big a leap as you think.

The UK has different issues, what is happening here is a dismantling of the state; control of media, and again civil liberties being restricted under law (all whilst breaking the law themselves through policy and legislation), PM breaking the ministerial code and rewriting rules to be more favourable after and of course curtailing the power of unions. This is a clear regression in standard and a clear far-right populist ideology driving it all. If we continue on this path (and there is no signs of them slowing up) again we are not as far away from a similar situation as saw in Germany. They play culture war politics in the media to keep people distracted from this horrific dismantling of the state and to an extent society itself but the dismantling is happening.

Just ask yourself one question, where do you think the end point is for this current government on their current trajectory? You don't need that much of the vote (especially after gerrymandering the boundaries) to win a majority, most of the press are behind their ideology and are one of the biggest factors in low-information's voters decisions. They could win, and this is just the start.... we are not as far away as you think.

Well thebend point Will be the next general election l, unless you honestly believe they will totally dismantle democratic vote system prior to that? I thinknwr have a terrible government, but I also think we will simply replace them in 2 years and move on

I hope so, the electorate can be a fickle beast though. They have a chance...somehow!

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

What do I think is the end point? General election. Probably labour win. Things will then carry on exactly as they have under the Tories.

What do you think is the end point is more pertinent. I assume we carry on the proto nazi route? Who do we gas? Who do we invade?

 

[Redwurzel]

We seem to have a lot of historians with us so I will ask some questions about 1930s Germany

How long did opposition parties last in Nazi Germany?

Ho long did left wing trade unions last?

How long did opposition media last?

When was the first concentration camps set up?

Today what is happening in Russian is fascist where people opposing Putin and his war are "removed" there is little free public speech for anyone opposing the war.

Giant marches have taken place in the UK against the Government's Covid vaccination policy and against the UK leaving the EU - how many of the marchers were imprisoned or prosecuted for marching/protesting?

Extreme Far Right racist political parties are (correctly banned in this country) why is this if we have a far right Government?

 

[JonnyHistory]

What do I think is the end point? General election. Probably labour win. Things will then carry on exactly as they have under the Tories.

What do you think is the end point is more pertinent. I assume we carry on the proto nazi route? Who do we gas? Who do we invade?

That is not something anyone can predict, the end point will be what it is.
My point is, the GE may not be as fair as you think, or they may just legitimately win, they could. And, if they do, where does this path lead?

They attempt to silence any opposition and are trying to vilify sections of society and encourage partisan with their rhetoric.

It is never going to be a carbon copy of what happened in Germany, what is obvious though are the parallels in how the government is acting and the creeping division they are deliberately sowing in society and the erosion of civil liberties, union power, the state and press freedoms. These are Nazi tactics, this is far-right and liberally-economic policy ideology they are employing, so where is the line? They attempt to silence any opposition and are trying to vilify sections of society and encourage partisan with their rhetoric; this in of itself has Nazi undertones.

You need about 35ish % of the vote to win a majority in the UK, pretty much the same % of Germans that voted Nazi in their last legitimate election before Hitlers rule. Maybe it will end up with the vilification of all trans people, maybe like America they will come after women's rights but stop there. How many of these hard-fought for rights does it take before we are in a perceived fascist state?

I hope, and like you think the most likely outcome is a Labour win. But, that is by no means certain, this is not a party, this is Boris's party and it is a cult of personality. He can hold on and he can win a GE again, and if that happens (and as he says he wants to serve 3 terms) where does our current path end? Never dismiss things under a false belief it couldn't happen here. It can happen anywhere, and throughout history it has.

 

[JonnyHistory]

We seem to have a lot of historians with us so I will ask some questions about 1930s Germany

How long did opposition parties last in Nazi Germany?

Ho long did left wing trade unions last?

How long did opposition media last?

When was the first concentration camps set up?

Today what is happening in Russian is fascist where people opposing Putin and his war are "removed" there is little free public speech for anyone opposing the war.

Giant marches have taken place in the UK against the Government's Covid vaccination policy and against the UK leaving the EU - how many of the marchers were imprisoned or prosecuted for marching/protesting?

I can understand why you would think Russia is fascist, and to be honest it is not a bad description. The problem is, the definitions of what fascism, totalitarianism, authoritarianism is, are all subtly different and in some cases contested. Political Science scholars whole careers are spent writing and debating that subject. I think what is fair to say is they are in more of a faux democracy than us and Putin is unquestionably an authoritarian.

The questions you are asking are easily Googled and not really what historians would tackle.

History is more in depth than just remembering landmark events or dates, it is about the why and how. How did Hitler dismantle the media? or what tactics did Hitler use to eliminate the trade union opposition and was their elimination inevitable? is more akin to a scholarly historical question.

The number is probably small, the issue is today a law went into effect that criminalised some aspects of protest, there are other mirco erosions that have been brought in along with things like selling off C4 for eg, they are silencing a critic. Fascism starts small, its like a frog being placed in cold water and slowly boiled, they chip away bit at a time, causing more and more partisan division and eventually all societies have a cracking point.

I am not saying any of this is certain and it is only my opinion; I hope and am relatively confident of a Labour win in the next GE. However, if that doesn't materialise, I can't see the current crop reversing track can you?

 

[SmallTown]

We seem to have a lot of historians with us so I will ask some questions about 1930s Germany

How long did opposition parties last in Nazi Germany?

Ho long did left wing trade unions last?

How long did opposition media last?

When was the first concentration camps set up?

Today what is happening in Russian is fascist where people opposing Putin and his war are "removed" there is little free public speech for anyone opposing the war.

Giant marches have taken place in the UK against the Government's Covid vaccination policy and against the UK leaving the EU - how many of the marchers were imprisoned or prosecuted for marching/protesting?

Extreme Far Right racist political parties are (correctly banned in this country) why is this if we have a far right Government?

You're getting 1930s Germany mixed up with 1940s Germany. It's a common mistake and which is why people easily think they can brush off the fascism calls. Until its too late of course

 

[JonnyHistory]

View attachment 40596

I am struggling to see the point you are making here?

 

[Redwurzel]

On the contrary, brainwashing is far more sophisticated now. The algorithms on sites like facebook can target even individual people according to their tastes, and guide them to the echo chambers of people who have already gone down that particular rabbit hole.

Common routes in the past were:

Military takeovers - Chile 1973, Spain 1936, Greece 1946.

In Russia in late 1917 the Bolsheviks used forced too - I have learnt they had 25% support but killed or threatened the other 75% and then censored everything. Within 3 months they created the Cheka that later became the KGB.

Demonisation is a common strategy - them Bourgesie, them Communists, them Jews, them Tutsie

Hitler combined that with a physical security threat "they" tried to burn down the Reichstag. What amazed me was that 99% of Brits that wanted to go to Berlin Olympics still went - 3 years after democracy had been closed down.

In the film V for Viendetta one party under John Hurt said an opposition group had poisoned the water supply to a school (St Mary's) and that gave them to power to round up anyone who did not fit.

Blair use the threat of hidden nuclear weapons to justify invading Iraq.

Thatcher - rule by the mob to stop movement of striking miners. I remember road blocks on motorways in 1984/5.

The internet is a sly tool, but it is used to try to radicalise many - it does not have a pure left/right wing filter for example it was used to some extent to recruit for ISIS and Far Right groups.

My current opinion is the present Government is not at the stage of any the above. But of course I could have been conned. Even though most of my media is probably FMTTM.

 

[JonnyHistory]

Common routes in the past were:

Military takeovers - Chile 1973, Spain 1936, Greece 1946.

In Russia in late 1917 the Bolsheviks used forced too - I have learnt they had 25% support but killed or threatened the other 75% and then censored everything. Within 3 months they created the Cheka that later became the KGB.

Demonisation is a common strategy - them Bourgesie, them Communists, them Jews, them Tutsie

Hitler combined that with a physical security threat "they" tried to burn down the Reichstag. What amazed me was that 99% of Brits that wanted to go to Berlin Olympics still went - 3 years after democracy had been closed down.

In the film V for Viendetta one party under John Hurt said an opposition group had poisoned the water supply to a school (St Mary's) and that gave them to power to round up anyone who did not fit.

Blair use the threat of hidden nuclear weapons to justify invading Iraq.

Thatcher - rule by the mob to stop movement of striking miners. I remember road blocks on motorways in 1984/5.

The internet is a sly tool, but it is used to try to radicalise many - it does not have a pure left/right wing filter for example it was used to some extent to recruit for ISIS and Far Right groups.

My current opinion is the present Government is not at the stage of any the above. But of course I could have been conned. Even though most of my media is probably FMTTM.

In many ways the government is much further than any of these. These are individual examples, this government is going after immigrants, the poor, the unions, the right to protest, the right of asylum, the standards politicians have to hold themselves to account, the NHS, even kids school lunches and their ability to be pretty much above the law. All whilst lining the pockets of the donor class and themselves.

Blair and Thatcher would have walked had they been caught up in the same scandals, despite their flaws they would never have went this far.

 

[locomansimon]

I agree with you. My point is that you need to brainwash a gigantic amount of people for fascism to take over a country. Globalisation and connectivity means that other outlets and points of view are always available. If the U.K. started to restrict internet access then I’d concede there was a lurch towards genuine fascism. In my opinion, it’s lack of choice that is paramount to reshaping ideology. If your tastes can be subverted to supporting extremist views then you lack critical thinking skills. Fascists gonna fascist or whatever. Not sure if that works as a verb but it’ll do.

Brainwashed into Brexit?

 

[locomansimon]

As a graduate of history, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that America and the UK are all in a quasi-fascist state at the minute. Russia, is more authoritarian than fascist and the term fascist and its meaning is very contentious in of itself; there is no one accepted definition in a modern context. What is clear is that minority far-right ideology is being implemented on both sides of the Atlantic and civil liberties are being eroded as the states are assuming more power.

In America the libertarian billionaires, the far-right and perhaps to a greater extent the evangelical-right, have infiltrated every level of the courts, bought off and have assumed roles as senators and are pushing their agenda. We can see this in action with Roe vs Wade, the GOP have bided their time, loaded the court with enough hacks, and now they are going after hard fought for rights. First for women, next will be homosexuals and trans people. America is in danger of democratic regression and the walk to fascism from their current position is not as big a leap as you think.

The UK has different issues, what is happening here is a dismantling of the state; control of media, and again civil liberties being restricted under law (all whilst breaking the law themselves through policy and legislation), PM breaking the ministerial code and rewriting rules to be more favourable after and of course curtailing the power of unions. This is a clear regression in standard and a clear far-right populist ideology driving it all. If we continue on this path (and there is no signs of them slowing up) again we are not as far away from a similar situation as saw in Germany. They play culture war politics in the media to keep people distracted from this horrific dismantling of the state and to an extent society itself but the dismantling is happening.

Just ask yourself one question, where do you think the end point is for this current government on their current trajectory? You don't need that much of the vote (especially after gerrymandering the boundaries) to win a majority, most of the press are behind their ideology and are one of the biggest factors in low-information's voters decisions. They could win, and this is just the start.... we are not as far away as you think.

Frightening

 

[r00fie1]

If you`ve time to do some reading.
Here are two books which frame the present in historical context:

​

Creeping Fascism: What It Is & How to Fight It​

By Neil Faulkner

[Courtesy of Amazon]

This book is about one simple idea: that the wave of racism and reaction sweeping the world is the modern form of fascism. New and updated version.
The 'Brexit' referendum in 2016, when just over half the British electorate voted to leave the European Union, was followed a year later by Donald Trump's election as US president, confirming a qualitative shift in global politics, a sudden lurch to the right, away from liberal democracy towards a police state enforcing nationalism, racism, and sexism.
Nothing has happened in the two years since Brexit and Trump's election to doubt that world politics is increasingly poisoned by 'creeping fascism'.
The ascendancy of politicians like Trump in the US, Marine Le Pen in France, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, and many more in other countries, cannot be explained as a passing phase of 'populism', and to do so minimises the acute dangers we face from the global rise of the far-right.
How can we stop this 'second wave' of fascism returning us to the darkest times? How do we prevent the history of the 1930s repeating itself in the early 21st century? How do we break fascism, before it breaks us, and open the road to an alternative future and a world transformed?

Available here >>>>

Creeping Fascism: What It Is & How to Fight It

This book is about one simple that the wave of racism …

www.goodreads.com

I recently found this thought-provoking bed-time reading:

Peter and Irma Petroff, authors of the title piece in this book, offer an eye-witness report on the terrible events of 1933. They tell of the defeat of the German labour movement and explain why the organisations of the German working class failed miserably to confront the enemy that threatened ― and was to carry out ― its destruction. As the danger of new authoritarians increases, these texts are once again required reading for people who wish to learn the grim lessons of that catastrophic defeat and who are determined not to allow history to repeat itself.

Available here>>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/1933-Warnings-History-Paul-FLEWERS/dp/0850367654

 

[JonnyHistory]

If you`ve time to do some reading.
Here are two books which frame the present in historical context:

​

Creeping Fascism: What It Is & How to Fight It​

By Neil Faulkner
View attachment 40607
[Courtesy of Amazon]

This book is about one simple idea: that the wave of racism and reaction sweeping the world is the modern form of fascism. New and updated version.
The 'Brexit' referendum in 2016, when just over half the British electorate voted to leave the European Union, was followed a year later by Donald Trump's election as US president, confirming a qualitative shift in global politics, a sudden lurch to the right, away from liberal democracy towards a police state enforcing nationalism, racism, and sexism.
Nothing has happened in the two years since Brexit and Trump's election to doubt that world politics is increasingly poisoned by 'creeping fascism'.
The ascendancy of politicians like Trump in the US, Marine Le Pen in France, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, and many more in other countries, cannot be explained as a passing phase of 'populism', and to do so minimises the acute dangers we face from the global rise of the far-right.
How can we stop this 'second wave' of fascism returning us to the darkest times? How do we prevent the history of the 1930s repeating itself in the early 21st century? How do we break fascism, before it breaks us, and open the road to an alternative future and a world transformed?

Available here >>>>

Creeping Fascism: What It Is & How to Fight It

This book is about one simple that the wave of racism …

www.goodreads.com

I recently found this thought-provoking bed-time reading:
View attachment 40608
Peter and Irma Petroff, authors of the title piece in this book, offer an eye-witness report on the terrible events of 1933. They tell of the defeat of the German labour movement and explain why the organisations of the German working class failed miserably to confront the enemy that threatened ― and was to carry out ― its destruction. As the danger of new authoritarians increases, these texts are once again required reading for people who wish to learn the grim lessons of that catastrophic defeat and who are determined not to allow history to repeat itself.

Available here>>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/1933-Warnings-History-Paul-FLEWERS/dp/0850367654

Thanks for the suggestion, I will add it to my seemingly only expanding list