A convenient excuse but not one Labour could seriously make now. Starmer went to a church that does gay conversion brainwashing a few weekends ago, their Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities was giving out anti-traveller leaflets last weekend and Rosie Duffield MPs been posting heaps of anti-trans and homophobic stuff for months now without being kicked out the party. Starmer's Labour doesn't do class politics or identity politics.
14 point Tory lead - Disastrous polling for Labour
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A convenient excuse but not one Labour could seriously make now. Starmer went to a church that does gay conversion brainwashing a few weekends ago, their Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities was giving out anti-traveller leaflets last weekend and Rosie Duffield MPs been posting heaps of anti-trans and homophobic stuff for months now without being kicked out the party. Starmer's Labour doesn't do class politics or identity politics.
Otto42
Well-known member
Labour under estimate how hard it will be to win back the red wall, it wasn't just lost at the last election. The working class have always been conservative with a small c and as soon as a significant number started to see Labour as the enemy rather than the friend it was going to be difficult to ever get a labour government again. Maybe we can get a centre left coalition of some sort, but labour are now I'm afraid moving to a position that the socialists in France and Germany now find themselves in. Perhaps we need a British Macron?!
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Andy the opposite is true. You're ignoring that period by only looking at the figures for the start and end points and concluding that as it's gone from -20 to -13 everything is hunky dory. You need to consider the context that you're comparing the time after a thumping at a general election, with a leader that had already announced they were stepping down, to 3 weeks before a double set of local elections. And you also need to consider the trajectory the party is on. Forget Feb 2020, it's over a year ago and makes no difference now. What's relevant is the party sliding from level pegging to this far behind in a matter of months.
Daft.
I'm not the one kicking former leaders out the party am I?
Otto42
Well-known member
Agree with your analysis but not so sure about the solution. The 2019 manifesto was a cobbled together mess. Corbyn's Labour did well when they focused on economic issues, as soon as the narrative moved and that Tories stole their clothes it was difficult to take that much further. At the end of the day people have to want you to run the country...people preferred Johnson to Corbyn on that front. I still think at a general election people may prefer Starmer to Johnson when the current mess starts to hit people in their pockets, unfortunately Boris might cut and run for an election before then!
deganya
Well-known member
Hard left my ****
Andy_W
Well-known member
Andy the opposite is true. You're ignoring that period by only looking at the figures for the start and end points and concluding that as it's gone from -20 to -13 everything is hunky dory. You need to consider the context that you're comparing the time after a thumping at a general election, with a leader that had already announced they were stepping down, to 3 weeks before a double set of local elections. And you also need to consider the trajectory the party is on. Forget Feb 2020, it's over a year ago and makes no difference now. What's relevant is the party sliding from level pegging to this far behind in a matter of months.
Daft.
You're looking at a 3-month window, to suit your/ labours left, self-harming narrative, ignoring the news which affects every single person in the UK, massively.
So, in December I take it you were singing Starmer's praises were you, for getting level? Nope.
Referring to JC as a "leader", lol, pull the other one. Any leader would try and win, before trying to change the game.
Kicking him out was necessary, JC is one of the main reasons that a massive percentage of the voters won't vote labour, the same as Dianne Abbott. Every tory I know hated those two, and I've not heard a peep from any of them about Starmer, never mind Symonds.
Which voters were labour gaining by having him in? Some of the further left (of labour)? By every one they took from further left, they lost three in the centre.
If you don't win the middle ground, you just don't win.
Let's just wait until the next election and compare that to JC's "performance" to Starmer then, shall we?
I'm not even digging at JC's policies or at being further left, that's all fine, but tactically it doesn't work, it is completely pointless in the UK as there is just not enough people that think the same way (or they're split over too many parties), especially in a FPTP system.
Labour need to pick up the middle ground and quickly as if they don't and Scotland leaves the UK then it's game over for decades.
Well he quite literally was the former party leader, was he not?
What a weird thing to have a go about.
Andy_W
Well-known member
There's a big difference between being the leader of a party, and actually being able to lead it successfully and/ or lead to a win, he was never going to do any of those, so the faster they cut ties with him from a tactical point of view, the better.Well he quite literally was the former party leader, was he not?
End of the day, you have to win first, or prevent a majority/ coalition for your competition and then also be able to align with other parties with common ground, there was zero chance of JC doing and maintaining this.
Of course it wasn't. Starmer had already had Corbyn go through the party's disciplinary procedure. A committee of Starmer's choosing had resolved the issue. It could easily have been left at that.
Not sure what you're getting at here. Carrie Symonds?Well they've lost a bunch of voters by kicking him out and if the polls are anything to go by they don't seem to have gained any in the "centre".
This is the cultism the left were accused of the last 5 years. You've decided that Rudy Gestede up front is gonna work and now you're just gonna pick him week in week out and ignore what you see on the pitch.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
There is no such thing as a red wall in my opinion.
There were 17 million Brexit voters like it or not who Johnson managed to steal partly from Farage and partly from Labour.
I also think politics is volatile these days, wild swings of opinion/approval on short term issues like being locked/unlocked or vaccine roll out.
I remember the Thatcher years very well and it was similar to now with large parts of the electorate shaking their heads at her popularity whilst she closed down the industrial base of the country. Interestingly the Tories had plenty of seats on Teesside at this time as well whilst closing the steelworks and putting thousands on the dole. When Major beat Kinnock in 1992 it seemed like they would be in government for ever.
But then Labour went sensible, and started under Smith then Blair to calm down and offer solid alternatives to the Tories and out of the blue won the biggest landslide I’ve seen in my lifetime.
It will turn, sometimes it needs a bit of patience, the Tories are nowhere near as secure as it might appear.
r00fie1
Well-known member
This is like the Brexit Brigade who wanted out of the European Union
and now they are "out" they keep apportioning blame for failure of the Brexit experiment on the very organisation they have left!
The Labour right have expelled Jews [on lies and fabricated allegations] and those foot-soldiers who kept the Party afloat,
they have their Zionist careerist in place,
now blame those who they "defeated" for their failure.(!!?)
The Establishment have done their job [for now].
and now they are "out" they keep apportioning blame for failure of the Brexit experiment on the very organisation they have left!
The Labour right have expelled Jews [on lies and fabricated allegations] and those foot-soldiers who kept the Party afloat,
they have their Zionist careerist in place,
now blame those who they "defeated" for their failure.(!!?)
The Establishment have done their job [for now].
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
That statement just doesn't match the figures. In England Corbyn won many votes that had been lost previously. If Scotland wasn't already lost to Labour we would now be in our 4th year of a Corbyn lead Labour government. Instead of waiting to compare Corbyn's performance against Starmer's let's compare him against Blair, Brown and Miliband.
Labour's popular vote in England
1997 - 11,347,882
2001 - 9,056,824
2005 - 8,043,461
2010 - 7,042,398
2015 - 8,087,706
2017 - 11,390,099
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Yes ‘for now’ but it will turn, strange times just now.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Corbyn offered a radical alternative in 2017 but had run out of steam against a new Tory leader by 2019. He should have handed the baton over after 2017 for a fresh leader to push on.
r00fie1
Well-known member
I dont believe in fate: "but it will turn" - like waiting for tomorrow - it will come,
but so will rain and snow and the chill of winter.
Unless we get off our arzes and do it ourselves then the unelected bureaucratic Labour establishment are firmly in control.....
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Labour needs to get back to its core values and be proud of them, and that goes for Labour voters on the left and the right as well as the parliamentary party and the activists.
Johnsons (apparent) popularity and the you gov opinion polls showing a big Tory lead which mysteriously appear just as Cameron sleaze is in the headlines are nothing more than background noise at this stage of the game.
Its up to all of us to bang the drum for the great Labour virtues of free high quality health care for everybody, good workers rights in the face of greedy employers, dignity for the elderly, a safety net for the disadvantaged, a fair and honest society, good state education for all, a level playing field of opportunity from birth, good housing for all etc etc.
The Tories believe in one thing - a few people accumulating a lot of money, anything else they have done has been forced on them by the threat of Labour getting into power.
There is loads to go at, it’s up to all of us to get the message across. Infighting is just a waste of energy.
r00fie1
Well-known member
I dont accept this "infighting" argument - its a red herring.
Starmer is not a socialist or even a social - democrat.
He supports austerity.
He supports a racist apartheid state - his recruitment of a former Israeli Spy does nothing to question his loyalty to a foreign power: https://dorseteye.com/former-israeli-army-spy/
He describes the movement against racism as a "moment" - marginalising a major movement in our time. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ing-trend-wriggling-show-support-black-lives/
His lack of policies and shallowness is epitomised by wrapping himself in the Union Flag and appealing to nationalist and racist sentiment. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...een-new-flag-waving-Keir-Starmer-kidding.html
He backs without question the descriminatory expulsion of members on trumped - up charges - including Jews who have been members longer than he has been born. https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/
His silence on all major issues shows his complicity with the status quo and fundamental acceptance of the values of the establishment.
His record as DPP is appalling. https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-cps-ian-tomlinson-john-worboys-a9276321.html
What this mans politics and policies say about working class people, trades unions, poverty, homelessness, racism, disability, discrimination and life outside the elite bubble can be written on the side of a matchstick.
Hes in the party to do a hatchet job along with his apparatchik`s and fellow travelers.
His "10 pledges" he trumpeted have vanished. https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...-jvl-blog-newsletter-total-articles-for-you_1
I couldnt care if he was a post-box as a leader - but there are no policies and his stance is like a police road - block against legal democratic protesters - waiting with their batons drawn to repel all borders and anyone who supports progress.
