Fuel shortage

I am surprised some posters (especially left wing ones) are arguing in effect for continued low wages for drivers.

With sometimes have to live with slightly higher prices for the economy to work.

It can't be right for people stacking shelves to be paid around £9/hour and lorry drivers around £11/hour.

Ex pfc wintergreen said:

“Moving economic activity out of the SE”- isn’t that levelling up.

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Yes, you are correct.

The UK economy is unbalanced to me.

Rofesleg said:

This isn't a dig btw, I am genuinely interested (in a Dave Gorman type of way).
Was 'full proof' a typo or do you think that is the correct turn of phrase?

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Is the use of the word "guaranteed" better.

I only went to a "bog standard" comprehensive and wasn't taught much proper grammar/English. or touch typing

SmallTown said:

Yes and ICE vehicles never run out of petrol...

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ST - I think the issue is estimating consumption for electric. Some drivers including motoring journalists seem to struggle to estimate how many miles is a full charge etc for electric. It could because its early days for electric or consumption varies my widely with electric.

Doesn't an electric car give pretty good estimates of remaining miles? The lucid air is reputed to be with 0.5% with its range estimates.

Laughing you are probably right I just go by what I read in car mags and the journalists often struggle to estimste how far they can go on a full charge. They seem to rely on a warning light/reading when on low charge and its often differe to the manaufacturer's specifications say running out at 180 miles and it should be 240 etc. Thye say it varies a lot on how you drive.

Redwurzel said:

Laughing you are probably right I just go by what I read in car mags and the journalists often struggle to estimste how far they can go on a full charge. They seem to rely on a warning light/reading when on low charge and its often differe to the manaufacturer's specifications say running out at 180 miles and it should be 240 etc. Thye say it varies a lot on how you drive.

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I would take motoring journalists advice with a pinch of salt. There is a significant amount of lobbying from the car industry that puts pressure on them to say things that delay the onset of EV.


The simple fact is, my car is as accurate at judging range as my previous car was. That is to say, neither were great but my big diesel merc was as bad, if not worse, than the Tesla. I know someone with the same merc as me who warned me he once ran out of diesel when the range was showing over 60 miles left in the tank.

The truth is, though, EV mileage is slightly more variable on long journeys. Weather plays a big part. A windy, cold and rainy journey will give you worse fuel economy. Mind you, rain isn't a dramatic effect and wind would affect an ICE car as much. It's only heat that is an unknown variable as an EV motor, when cruising doesn't generate residual heat in the same way an engine does so has to use energy to generate it. Even this is being reduced in effect as modern cars have heat pumps.

Also, if they say they don't get fair warnings about low fuel, that is an out and out lie. Every modern EV gives you plenty of warnings when you're running out of fuel. (They also have sat navs that will tell you if they have enough power to get to your destination. something I have never seen on an ICE vehicle).

On top of that, when battery get really low, they reduce power to give you extra range to find a charger. Again, this is something not available on an ICE vehicle I have seen.

Redwurzel said:

Is the use of the word "guaranteed" better.

I only went to a "bog standard" comprehensive and wasn't taught much proper grammar/English. or touch typing

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I only asked because some phrases change over time, initially by mistake but then in their own right.
e.g. 'Bull in a china shop' is sometimes said as 'Bowl in a china shop' with a totally different meaning. (ref. Dave Gorman).
I just wondered if 'Fool proof' might have changed to 'Full proof' in a similar way.

Redwurzel said:

I am surprised some posters (especially left wing ones) are arguing in effect for continued low wages for drivers.

With sometimes have to live with slightly higher prices for the economy to work.

It can't be right for people stacking shelves to be paid around £9/hour and lorry drivers around £11/hour.

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I'm not surprised at all.

Redwurzel said:

We can't rely on going to mainland Europe (mainly Eastern Europe) for more and more drivers, for ever.

Drivers wages in this country has been poor for a while now, while demand for their serivces is increasing.

Someone from a haulage company came on here (worked in the offices) and said drivers were paid £11/hour before this crisis, that can't be right can it?

For many cargoes the drivers wages are a tiny % of the value of the cargo, in fact it was not surprise me if the fuel used cost more than the drivers wages. How sad is that.

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I didn't say we could, but we need to fix the original problems, before creating new ones. Automation will eventually take care of it (or at least some of it, which might be enough), but we need to keep the goods flowing for 5-10 years before that happens, at least. Ditching the only area of easy gains (the EU) isn't the best way to do that.

As for pay, I don't know any British drivers on less than 30k per year, certainly not the ones kipping out doing long haul, with experience etc, and I used to have a building based in a truck stop. Some young lads might be on less than that, when starting off, of course, maybe £25k per year or working out at £11 an hour, but that's way more than a load of skilled trades start at. Obviously, the hourly rate gets diluted down as they have access to loads of overtime.

I wouldn't do it for £11 an hour, and wouldn't advise any young to do it for that, or even 50% more, there's better ways to make money, with a brighter future.

Pilots wages are tiny compared to the value of the cargo, same as the sums handled by stockbrokers, same as anything, that's just how it works.

Laughing said:

Not sure why I am bothering Andy, but looking just at ONS data UK and EU drivers increased up until 2017, as did the total driver workforce, as you would expect.

Since 2017 BOTH UK drivers and EU drivers have left the industry. You say UK drivers left for one reason and EU drivers left for another, stating how the UK workforce was better educated than the Eu drivers and that was the reason tfor the UK driver fall off. The you argue that a potential UK driver will have higher aspirations than a Polish driver..

The data shows a drop off for both data sets, but you think its for different reasons, is that right? Because if it is there is no point having the discussion. The data doesn't say that, that is your interpretation based on your viewpoint.

​

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EU drivers were going up, by big percentages, UK ones going down or staying the same......jesus. They're were on two completely different trajectories/ trends.

Yes, some very different reasons.
EU drivers were kicked out, leavers been banging on that they're not welcome for five years, or did you not see that?
UK drivers were getting older and more able to beat the tax system.
EU drivers had fewer opportunities back home (in their own country), so they came here, where we needed them.
EU drivers, from the less well off countries, may have marginally chosen us before over Germany, France etc, but not now due to FOM and CU etc.
Some reasons were the same for UK and EU: crap conditions, crap prospects.

I can't even be bothered reading the rest, you just will not accept anything, even when the experts are saying it, all I'm doing is repeating what they're saying are the reasons and trying to explain why, but it's like talking to door, you just don't get it, or won't accept it.
I'm saying they're all problems, as they are.

Maybe look outside of your bubble, and read what the EU drivers who have moved back have been saying.

Andy_W said:

EU drivers were going up, by big percentages, UK ones going down or staying the same......jesus. They're were on two completely different trajectories/ trends.

Yes, some very different reasons.
EU drivers were kicked out, leavers been banging on that they're not welcome for five years, or did you not see that?
UK drivers were getting older and more able to beat the tax system.
EU drivers had fewer opportunities back home (in their own country), so they came here, where we needed them.
EU drivers, from the less well off countries, may have marginally chosen us before over Germany, France etc, but not now due to FOM and CU etc.
Some reasons were the same for UK and EU: crap conditions, crap prospects.

I can't even be bothered reading the rest, you just will not accept anything, even when the experts are saying it, all I'm doing is repeating what they're saying are the reasons and trying to explain why, but it's like talking to door, you just don't get it, or won't accept it.
I'm saying they're all problems, as they are.

Maybe look outside of your bubble, and read what the EU drivers who have moved back have been saying.

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Ha Haa. I have posted multiple EU driver opinions when discussing this. I have posted an ft article with a survey of returning EU drivers.

No they weren't on different trends from 2019 they were both going down. Why the increase in EU drivers of 20% in the second quarter of this year?

Why the trend across ark of Europe.

You are blinded by a preconceived opinion as you always are.

Make up your own mind if it helps you sleep

Redwurzel said:

I am surprised some posters (especially left wing ones) are arguing in effect for continued low wages for drivers.

With sometimes have to live with slightly higher prices for the economy to work.

It can't be right for people stacking shelves to be paid around £9/hour and lorry drivers around £11/hour.

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I'm not left-wing, I'm more centrist I suppose, but I'm not arguing that, what I'm saying is if pay for everyone who is low paid went up, then those who were on more will want more, and so on and so on, then you end up with hyperinflation. Then if that happens we become even less competitive than the EU, then loads of companies fail and then loads of people are on £0.

I'm saying a supposedly growing/ developed economy needs cheap labour/ drivers/ whatever, if the people who are born there don't want to do such jobs, as there are other opportunities.

I don't mind if we gave everyone a 50% rise, but it's not that simple, it would tank the economy, then everyone loses. Then when there's fewer jobs, the guys at the bottom get booted out and replaced by guys who were above them, like what happened in 2010. The rich/ highly paid guys don't end up out of work, they just take the job of one of the skint/ less well paid guys. It sucks, but I'm unsure what the solution would be?

There really isn't a long term future for HGV drivers. The job will be automated in a decade or so. For a few years they'll be in short supply and then there'll be over supply.

Laughing said:

Ha Haa. I have posted multiple EU driver opinions when discussing this. I have posted an ft article with a survey of returning EU drivers.

No they weren't on different trends from 2019 they were both going down. Why the increase in EU drivers of 20% in the second quarter of this year?

Why the trend across ark of Europe.

You are blinded by a preconceived opinion as you always are.

Make up your own mind if it helps you sleep

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Returning EU drivers? What about the ones who didn't return?

Increase due to rapid trade uptake, due to the practical end of the pandemic (as far as restrictions go, vaccines etc), relaxed travelling and the increase in wages may have tempted a small percentage, for now.

I'm open to all the causes, you aren't just like always

Laughing said:

You are blinded by a preconceived opinion as you always are.

Make up your own mind if it helps you sleep

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I searched google for "why did EU drivers leave", these are the top 5 links, they all say brexit is a key factor, yet you won't acknowledge it

"The EU workers we speak to will not go to the U.K. for a short-term visa to help the U.K. out of the **** they created themselves," Edwin Atema of the Dutch Federation of Trade Unions told BBC Radio 4. "Drivers need way more than a visa and a payslip."

Edit: I spelt drivers wrong on the search, but google sussed what I was asking, here is the next lot from "why did eu drivers leave the UK":

After weeks of mounting pressure over shortages, the UK government announced it will issue 5,000 emergency visas to foreign truck drivers to help alleviate the problem.
But these are three-month visas, which critics say won’t entice European truck drivers.
Ruby McGregor-Smith, president of the Confederation of British Industry, said the visas were “the equivalent of throwing a thimble of water on a bonfire”.
Edwin Atema from the Dutch FNV union told Sky News the visa plan was “unrealistic”, asking: “Who will quit a job in the EU for a three-month visa in the UK? I think that's a really uncertain adventure.”
He told the broadcaster that poor working conditions in the UK and the possibility of being stuck in Dover were also putting European drivers off.

I found this article in The Grocer magazine. I have highlighted one passage from it because not only does it typify the reasons why EU drivers will not work in the UK but it shows the same ideology has been pushed onto much of the workforce in general over the last 10 years or so. We Brits have largely been unable to stand up to the poor working conditions and long hours due to anti trade union laws and the watering down of employment rights.

Unfortunately however, many of these drivers do not want to work in the UK even if they could. Not only has Brexit created endless paperwork and customs procedures, but working conditions are arguably superior in France, Germany and Belgium thanks to laws that, for example, make it illegal to work on Sundays.
This reluctance was voiced by dozens of drivers in the Financial Times last week. “I will never go back. I like England, it’s a great country. But to work, the way they treat people? Never again,” said one.

Trug said:

I found this article in The Grocer magazine. I have highlighted one passage from it because not only does it typify the reasons why EU drivers will not work in the UK but it shows the same ideology has been pushed onto much of the workforce in general over the last 10 years or so. We Brits have largely been unable to stand up to the poor working conditions and long hours due to anti trade union laws and the watering down of employment rights.

The real causes of the HGV driver shortage and why we can’t blame it all on Brexit

The HGV driver shortage has escalated to crisis point. As multiple theories circulate over the underlying cause, The Grocer has sourced exclusive data to uncover what's really driving the issue

www.thegrocer.co.uk

Unfortunately however, many of these drivers do not want to work in the UK even if they could. Not only has Brexit created endless paperwork and customs procedures, but working conditions are arguably superior in France, Germany and Belgium thanks to laws that, for example, make it illegal to work on Sundays.
This reluctance was voiced by dozens of drivers in the Financial Times last week. “I will never go back. I like England, it’s a great country. But to work, the way they treat people? Never again,” said one.

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I can't read the article as not subscribed, but the extract sounds about right, it seems a mix of how foreigners are treated, and what is now there preventing them, it's a steady demise largely caused by the boys in blue and their lemmings.

We can't blame it all on Brexit, certainly not for the loss of UK drivers, but Brexit and how we treat foreigners certainly affects EU drivers, it can't not do, it's impossible. Before they were seemingly willing to do it, and increase in numbers, but now I'm not surprised they're leaving (or booted out) because of FOM, CU, Paperwork, and how they're more appreciated elsewhere. Just another thing where we will lose ground to the EU.

This country is now a joke and I mean country, as the problem largely stems from England. The Tories and Brexit lot are so far up each other's backside that they can't see the wood for the trees. To get leave through, we've ended up with just about the worst deal possible, with the worst economic impact (as predicted by the Tories own pre-Brexit forecast), and we seem hell-bent on trying to take out the foundations and burn the bridges.

"levelling up" now seems to mean:
Economic loss, relevant to the EU
Less competitive, compared to the EU
Lowering of standards
Worse employment rights
Less labour/ driver flexibility
Hyper-inflation

I just feel sorry for the most worse off, the ones that didn't vote for this crap are going to get hammered, and they know it, but there's also the lot who voted for it, who don't realise they're getting their pants pulled down.

Andy

The £11/hour was quoted by someone on here who works in the haulage industry. He said that pay has now risen to £16/hour post covid, post Brexit, he didn't say what type of lorries it was. Around £16/hour seems fairer to me (about £30k a year). It puts the extra cost of a delivery of a full load up by say around £38, but on a load worth £3,800 that's an extra 0.1% on its final cost.

Money Week said 4 weeks ago - Lorry drivers for UK Supermarkets get a 27% premium over shop workers until recently. £11.32/hour would be a 27% premium on £8.91/hour living wage. The fairest way to compare is to look at hourly rate, not pay with overtime.

My brother was a lorry driver in the period 1992-1997 it was not well paid then and one reason he left was low pay. I gather the pay has deteriorated since then in real terms. He moved on to be a scaffolder (not well paid) but which was a bit better pay and less stress and responsibilities.

Businesses are crying out for tens of thousands of visa to be issued what does that do to pay it knocks it down and discourages people in the uk from entering the profession. Taking drivers from the EU has no guarantee they will stay even if they were given settled status, many will have their family and friends living in another country. Eventually the Estern Europen drivers will dry up too as wages increase in their own country.

As I see quite a number of people in business (but not all) want to minimise transport costs to the bone in the short run, and are not thinking medium to long term about what is sustainable.

Lorry driving to me is an example of how wages for working class people in this country has been driven down, while profits have increased leading to greater income and wealth inequality.

I realise you can only look at your situation, but I am looking at the bigger picture of what sort of society I would like. I worked in business as a buyer and my job was the drive costs down, with some employers down the bone and stuff the medium to long term. Some more enlightened employer looked longer term and knew it was supposed better to pay a bit more for longer term supply security and reliability. When I was young (mid 20s) I sometimes did not understand why but I do now.

Andy_W said:

I searched google for "why did EU drivers leave", these are the top 5 links, they all say brexit is a key factor, yet you won't acknowledge it

Emergency visas won’t tempt European lorry drivers to UK, say haulage chiefs

‘Much more’ needs to be done to resolve transport crisis, government told as poll shows majority blame Brexit

www.theguardian.com

LISTEN: Boris Johnson told EU drivers won't help him out of Brexit 's***'

EU lorry drivers will not come back to help the UK “out of the s*** they created themselves”, a trade union leader has warned.

www.thenational.scot

"The EU workers we speak to will not go to the U.K. for a short-term visa to help the U.K. out of the **** they created themselves," Edwin Atema of the Dutch Federation of Trade Unions told BBC Radio 4. "Drivers need way more than a visa and a payslip."

'You are on your own now' - EU lorry drivers react to pleas for them to return to UK

EU lorry drivers rejected UK’s call to come work in the UK until Christmas. A union said they will not help England with “****” it “created”.

www.thelondoneconomic.com

The government can't fix the lorry driver shortage until it admits it was caused by Brexit

They know that Brexit lies at the heart of what is happening, and that what’s happening must therefore be ignored

inews.co.uk

Edit: I spelt drivers wrong on the search, but google sussed what I was asking, here is the next lot from "why did eu drivers leave the UK":

How serious is the shortage of lorry drivers?

The industry says there's a shortage of 100,000 drivers but why is that and what is the likely impact?

www.bbc.co.uk

Exodus of EU truckers leaves UK hauliers facing acute driver shortages | Financial Times

Problem compounded by backlog of driving tests due to pandemic and tax reforms

www.ft.com

Emergency visas won’t tempt European lorry drivers to UK, say haulage chiefs

‘Much more’ needs to be done to resolve transport crisis, government told as poll shows majority blame Brexit

www.theguardian.com

After weeks of mounting pressure over shortages, the UK government announced it will issue 5,000 emergency visas to foreign truck drivers to help alleviate the problem.
But these are three-month visas, which critics say won’t entice European truck drivers.
Ruby McGregor-Smith, president of the Confederation of British Industry, said the visas were “the equivalent of throwing a thimble of water on a bonfire”.
Edwin Atema from the Dutch FNV union told Sky News the visa plan was “unrealistic”, asking: “Who will quit a job in the EU for a three-month visa in the UK? I think that's a really uncertain adventure.”
He told the broadcaster that poor working conditions in the UK and the possibility of being stuck in Dover were also putting European drivers off.

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You need to look deeper Andy, simple as that. Most articles include brexit as a factor which I don't disagree with. Let me make my point once more and argue with that. Whilst leaving the EU has had an impact we would be exactly where we are now without leaving the EU.

That is a fact. Had we lost no uk drivers without replacing them we would be a couple of hundred drivers short of our 2010 high.

Some of your other assertions are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Polish drivers are less well educated than UK drivers and less inspirational.

We can't just give the low paid wage increases because of inflation. Yes we can and yes it will lead to higher prices but we will be then paying what we should be paying. In real terms food prices have plummeted and a correction wouldn't be a bad thing.

However much more important is the awful working conditions which is the main driver for people leaving the industry not brexit. That's right not brexit. If isn't even the single biggest reason for EU drivers leaving the industry.