Hartlepool Constituency Poll

bear66 said:

That's looking dead in the water with Labour and Lib Dems against and 40+ Tories against.

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Even more so with the news coming out of the white house too.

I genuinely can't understand what the people of Hartlepool are thinking though. Nevermind brexit, what about the past 12 months? Conservatives are wholly responsible for the destruction of this country's financial health, physical health, mental health, social health and it's security.

Chris_Boro said:

One person's right Labour leader is another's wrong one, there is no compromise anymore, no patience to allow time for strategy or policy to be developed and anything that can be jumped on that's "proof" they are the wrong person is received with glee.

Labour are held to a standard that cannot be maintained, its MP's are expected to unite but also be free in expressing their views then attacked if that view is the wrong one for their "side".

No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water and while everyone is debating on their ability to swim, the Tories are busy gaslighting the nation with their blatant lies and handing £billions over to their mates.

I'm beginning to believe people are willing to vote Tory simply because it's the path of least resistance.

Headlines instead of detail.

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100%. It's all very well saying "labour don't represent their voters values anymore". But what most mean by that is "they don't represent MY values anymore".

Broadly speaking labour voters in metropolitan areas have different values to traditional labour voters in smaller towns (Eg the so called red wall). There is some alignment of course, but it's impossible to keep everyone happy. We see it on here all the time. Those more in favour of a Blair type party v the Corbynites.

It's a nightmare for labour and a problem the Tories don't have. On top of that labour need to find a way to target the floating vote, as well as keeping their traditional vote in tact (or reclaiming it).

It's easy for me. I'll vote whichever way is best to remove the Tories. I don't know if evil is too strong a word to describe the party, but it's not far off. Too many of the electorate are oblivious to what they're really like (and labour really need to find a way to get that message across).

But there are too many who are exactly aware of what the Tories are like and what they've done and are doing to this country, but who still won't vote against them. All because labour aren't the ideal party for their views. Cutting their nose off to spite their face. I despair.

I will be astonished if Hartlepool elect a Tory. History + the tories handling of the pandemic should ensure labour hold on.

Otto42 said:

I don't disagree with that. However, Corbyn was toxic to centre voters because of his history and perceived anti-Britishness. It's not all about the policies it's about the message. I think Starmer was getting the message across that Labour was sensible again, but the Tories have upped their PR game bringing in Mrs Boris and Alegra Strachan. It's not easy getting a left of centre progressive politician elected in an inherently conservative country brought up on memories of how we once ruled the world!

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Backstabbing career politicians were more toxic to voters. Those who were responsible can’t just sweep it under the carpet unfortunately.

Chris_Boro said:

One person's right Labour leader is another's wrong one, there is no compromise anymore, no patience to allow time for strategy or policy to be developed and anything that can be jumped on that's "proof" they are the wrong person is received with glee.

Labour are held to a standard that cannot be maintained, its MP's are expected to unite but also be free in expressing their views then attacked if that view is the wrong one for their "side".

No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water and while everyone is debating on their ability to swim, the Tories are busy gaslighting the nation with their blatant lies and handing £billions over to their mates.

I'm beginning to believe people are willing to vote Tory simply because it's the path of least resistance.

Headlines instead of detail.

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If the tories are going to be the bad guys then labour have to be the good guys, compulsory reselection, proportional representation, no second jobs for MPs.. y'know stuff like that. policies and holding the current government to account.

I honestly think that the Labour Party is a busted flush now, the folks with the power to change us for the better to make us electable cannot do so because of their confected interests. we are very much like the US at the moment a choice of right or further right. Labour is not the only choice, you only have to look at the SNP and Plaid Cymru (who both hold traditional Lablour values) to see what people want at the moment the majority of voter will go for the conservatives and it is very much the path of least resistance. the reason being the majority of Labour's PLP is busy trying to be David Cameron's Conservative Party so out of touch, so ingenuous, not willing to listen to it's members or the electorate.

the labour party is a closed bubble controlled by the PLP the majority of which are politically aligned to the right, they only talk between themselves, give weight to public perceptions from a right wing press and are now only fully supported by soft sycophantic, student types who have never done a days work in their entire life.. wannabe career politicians.

the labour parties only selling point is 'we're not the conservative party' - the thing is, that is not enough.. and it doesn't even ring true!
it looks very much like labour would be doing the exact same thing as the tories if they were in power.. just not as well.

it feels very much like a cross between the penny dropped on blairism under brown and everyone turning on the lib dems because they didn't keep to their word and put the tories in power. but much worse.
installing the blairites, going against brexit, supporting the tories RIP 1922-2020

Wiseman_Vaughn said:

I will be astonished if Hartlepool elect a Tory. History + the tories handling of the pandemic should ensure labour hold on.

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Tories delivered Brexit, plenty of families have been handed the lifeline of furlough vs what exactly? an MP who Stockton didn't want!

Having already posted on this thread about the Tories record of unemployment I can only say that a vote for the Tories is a vote to lose your job. And losing your job means debt, more poverty, losing your home,unable to feed your kids properly, foodbanks, mental health problems and of course being labelled an idle scrounger. To say the Tories care about people is frankly laughable. The Tories care about themselves and absolutely nothing else.

Havinig a go at a candidate for being parachuted in is an accusation you can throw at both main parties not just Labour.

newyddion said:

Tories delivered Brexit, plenty of families have been handed the lifeline of furlough vs what exactly? an MP who Stockton didn't want!

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I completely agree with you, it's just that when push comes to shove, I don't think they will elect a Tory.

Wiseman_Vaughn said:

I completely agree with you, it's just that when push comes to shove, I don't think they will elect a Tory.

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It will be interesting to see what comes of it. Jill Mortimer should not get in and if she does Starmer is done. If Paul Williams gets in it will be seen as a massive victory for Starmer's Labour, parachuting an ardent remainer into an area that voted 70% to leave. I'd put my money* on Thelma Walker to win, a quality MP backed by really good ideas.


*still very tempted to put money on boro getting promoted at 80/1 GOOD THINGS CAN HAPPEN

It's all very well saying Hartlepool should vote Labour because of high unemployment and deprivation, but the vast majority of voters are neither unemployed nor deprived. A lot of people are doing all right, even in Red Wall seats, as this week's Economist article "Barratt Britain" points out.

What is Labour offering to people who are broadly OK? I haven't seen anything resembling an alternative programme to appeal to them.

The next potential radical project is Universal Basic Income, to replace tax allowances, welfare benefits etc. Everyone earning under £40,000 could benefit, though the rich (me included) would pay more tax. The LibDems are flirting with it, but not so far Labour.

zaphod said:

It's all very well saying Hartlepool should vote Labour because of high unemployment and deprivation, but the vast majority of voters are neither unemployed nor deprived. A lot of people are doing all right, even in Red Wall seats, as this week's Economist article "Barratt Britain" points out.

What is Labour offering to people who are broadly OK? I haven't seen anything resembling an alternative programme to appeal to them.

The next potential radical project is Universal Basic Income, to replace tax allowances, welfare benefits etc. Everyone earning under £40,000 could benefit, though the rich (me included) would pay more tax. The LibDems are flirting with it, but not so far Labour.

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You make some valid points and places like Hartlepool are not as down and out as many in the MSM media think they are so there is no reason the Tories shouldn’t seek to pick up the aspirational vote as well as the Brexit single issue voters.

I think Starmer needs to get the Barratt estates on side like Blair did.

The Tories, in my opinion, are all over the place on policy since Johnson became leader so the old frighteners the Tories used to throw at Labour like overspending and high taxation will lack credibility next time around since Rishi’s spending spree.

zaphod said:

It's all very well saying Hartlepool should vote Labour because of high unemployment and deprivation, but the vast majority of voters are neither unemployed nor deprived. A lot of people are doing all right, even in Red Wall seats, as this week's Economist article "Barratt Britain" points out.

What is Labour offering to people who are broadly OK? I haven't seen anything resembling an alternative programme to appeal to them.

The next potential radical project is Universal Basic Income, to replace tax allowances, welfare benefits etc. Everyone earning under £40,000 could benefit, though the rich (me included) would pay more tax. The LibDems are flirting with it, but not so far Labour.

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Maybe Zaphod, but remember, the people who lost their jobs when the Tories got in were already in settled employment if previous elections are anything to go by. Unemployment ALWAYS increases under the Tories.

SuperStu said:

As I said on the thread the other day, Starmer has had a terrible first year as leader.

Anyone with any sense would be looking at the fact that 2017 was the first election since 1997 that Labour have gained seats and modelled themselves on that.

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The 2019 election was the worst Labour performance since 1935.

Lefty said:

The 2019 election was the worst Labour performance since 1935.

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In seats sure. Interesting to note it was still a higher proportion of the votes than Miliband or Brown managed. Maybe more correct to say it was a brilliant performance for the tories.

In any case it doesn't change my previous post. Labour have gained seats in just 1 general election in the last 20 years. Anyone saying the party have to move to the right to win elections is pretty blatantly doing so out of ideology rather than any sort of pragmatism. Which is fine of course, just don't pretend otherwise.

SuperStu said:

In seats sure. Interesting to note it was still a higher proportion of the votes than Miliband or Brown managed. Maybe more correct to say it was a brilliant performance for the tories.

In any case it doesn't change my previous post. Labour have gained seats in just 1 general election in the last 20 years. Anyone saying the party have to move to the right to win elections is pretty blatantly doing so out of ideology rather than any sort of pragmatism. Which is fine of course, just don't pretend otherwise.

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It was the worst result since 1935 and it was consistent with expectations of Labour’s internal polling.

The problem with Corbyn was not his policies, it was his competence. He surrounded himself with the wrong people and he was outmanoeuvred politically.

He inherited a government to oppose that had a mere 12 seat majority, but significant back bench Tory opposition to the government’s policy on Brexit, the defining issue of the day.

He deserves plenty of credit for the 2017 result, but you should be under no illusion, this was achieved only by an enormous number of Remainers being prepared to loan him their vote in order to thwart May’s Brexit government. At that time his policies were fine but he also benefited from not being well known enough to put some centrist Remainers off.

That changed when this lent Remainer vote was mischaracterised as a vote for Lexit by those around Corbyn, alienating many many Remain voters at a stroke. His incompetent handling of other issues, the anti semitism scandal in particular, ensured he would not be lent those votes again.

Had he been open to an alliance with the other Remain Parties, to a clear unambiguous message on Brexit, to electoral reform, he might have salvaged matters in 2019. He was too incompetent and weak and his inner circle too arrogant to do that and instead went from opposing a government on the ropes, hamstrung and unable to implement the far right policies it really wanted to for at least three more years, to being outmanoeuvred into an election it knew would be disastrous yet didn’t need to have.

Labour’s worst election result since 1935. An election he didn’t need to have. That they knew he would lose. Led to this far right nasty populist government with an 80 seat majority. He was leader. Stop giving him a free pass.

Chris_Boro said:

One person's right Labour leader is another's wrong one, there is no compromise anymore, no patience to allow time for strategy or policy to be developed and anything that can be jumped on that's "proof" they are the wrong person is received with glee.

Labour are held to a standard that cannot be maintained, its MP's are expected to unite but also be free in expressing their views then attacked if that view is the wrong one for their "side".

No matter who is Labour leader they will have to fight against the media current just to keep their head above water and while everyone is debating on their ability to swim, the Tories are busy gaslighting the nation with their blatant lies and handing £billions over to their mates.

I'm beginning to believe people are willing to vote Tory simply because it's the path of least resistance.

Headlines instead of detail.

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Headlines instead of detail, seriously?

What detail does Starmer have?

Without mentioning the Tories, can you tell me what Starmer stands for and give me a flavour of his policies?

newyddion said:

Tories delivered Brexit, plenty of families have been handed the lifeline of furlough vs what exactly? an MP who Stockton didn't want!

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Brexit is a con that only benefits a portion of the super-wealthy to avoid new EU tax avoidance legislation. There are very few benefits for anyone else and a huge downside for most people in increased prices and red tape

People need to be told the truth about it to snap them out of their delusions, but it ain't going to happen. The rich have won - they already controlled 80% of the media in this country and then people like Bannon and Cummings came up with a method of using Social Media to spread targeted misinformation to persuade enough uneducated people to vote for the interests of the super-rich and against their own.

Your perspective seems to be that unless Labour are somehow PERFECT it is acceptable for working class people to vote for a party that despises them and seeks only to further the interests of the establishment and the already wealthy. If a working class person in Hartlepool actually thinks their life chances are better under the Tories then I'm sorry but that person has no concept of reality.

BoroBukowski said:

Brexit is a con that only benefits a portion of the super-wealthy to avoid new EU tax avoidance legislation. There are very few benefits for anyone else and a huge downside for most people in increased prices and red tape

People need to be told the truth about it to snap them out of their delusions, but it ain't going to happen. The rich have won - they already controlled 80% of the media in this country and then people like Bannon and Cummings came up with a method of using Social Media to spread targeted misinformation to persuade enough uneducated people to vote for the interests of the super-rich and against their own.

Your perspective seems to be that unless Labour are somehow PERFECT it is acceptable for working class people to vote for a party that despises them and seeks only to further the interests of the establishment and the already wealthy. If a working class person in Hartlepool actually thinks their life chances are better under the Tories then I'm sorry but that person has no concept of reality.

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I don't expect Labour to be PERFECT I just want them to stop being UTTER GASH the fact is that Hartlepool voted massively in favour of leave 70% so why parachute and ardent remainder in from Stockton who lost his seat for exactly that reason? The party is gone it has completely lost the plot how hard would it have been to have open selection made up of local union representatives and the like. One that was in favour of remain. No point trying to force feed a position that the people simple do not want. They do not listen and they are completely out of touch. Too many student type career politicians who think they know best and have no qualms with looking down their noses at the working man.

In the last election I could see the swing going the way of the conservatives from a mile off. Why did they have a life long Eurosceptic show the remain card after the referendum fell on the side of leave. Facing off against a corrupt bumbling former europhile should have been like shooting fish in a barrel. Especially after the gains made in 2017. Why couldn't the PLP back their leader, their members, their manifesto, their voters.. it's absolute insanity. Being eurosceptic has long been a mainstay of the left, why hand that over to the conservatives. Why were we not borrowing conservative voters to get the right deal for the UK?

Yes it was divisive, yes it was engineered to be that way. But why play into their hands. Remain should have been the conservatives position, we should have dressed it as such forced it upon them and if necessary remainers from the Labour party would have been free to walk the floor and join the blues.

Hodge, Philips, Starmer etc.. surely that is what we would have wanted anyway. More of a one nation Conservative party with Labour holding on to it's core values. Now we have a far right conservative party filling their boots on the back of brexit and a one nation conservatism Thatcherite Labour Party.

Lefty said:

The problem with Corbyn was not his policies, it was his competence.

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Well the new guy has no policies and is even less competent if anything.

Lefty said:

Had he been open to an alliance with the other Remain Parties

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Please. As already stated in the thread an offer was made to the other parties - temporary coalition gov with Corbyn as PM. They made their choice. Keeping Corbyn out was more important than a second referendum to them.

Lefty said:

He was leader. Stop giving him a free pass.

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Two words - leaked document.

This is what makes me really know the party will never be a vehicle for any left wing progress in the country. The sheer desperation of everyone on the right of the party to blame it all on one guy. We've seen the evidence. We know he was sabotaged. Why not be up front about that?

The real joke is in 5 weeks when Starmer's lost Hartlepool and loads of councils they'll blame that on Corbyn too.