Scottish and Irish Independence

Ayresomes_on_Fire said:
Scotland going independent would make Brexit look like a tea party.
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Exactly do realise how integrated the United Kingdom is. The EU is largely hypothetical on many fronts but the links with Scotland are very real and very deep.

it would he practically impossible to be honest where would you start.
 
Hasnt the SNP be criticised across all other parties also today for seemingly prioritising independence over the pandemic?
 
Trug said:
They were told that it was a once in a generation referendum unless "anything significant changes" . Now I don't know about anyone else but being dragged out of the EU against their wishes is something that I would call significant,
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I think this is true and fair.
If an SNP landslide occurs in the forthcoming election then they surely have the right to vote again.
I do not see an easy return to the EU for them and a huge problem in their relationship with past benefactor. I'm not sure when push comes to shove they will vote Leave UK. If they do, then we should respect it. We should also then ensure the Rest of UK is prioritised completely in our thinking; Scotland should not be our concern.

I am more of the view that Ireland will be united first. Again, if this is NI's wish (and Ireland's) then it should happen.

Personally I hope the UK continues in full, but would prefer a Great Britain to a UK of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
 
indeedido said:
I think this is true and fair.
If an SNP landslide occurs in the forthcoming election then they surely have the right to vote again.
I do not see an easy return to the EU for them and a huge problem in their relationship with past benefactor. I'm not sure when push comes to shove they will vote Leave UK. If they do, then we should respect it. We should also then ensure the Rest of UK is prioritised completely in our thinking; Scotland should not be our concern.

I am more of the view that Ireland will be united first. Again, if this is NI's wish (and Ireland's) then it should happen.

Personally I hope the UK continues in full, but would prefer a Great Britain to a UK of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
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The problem is the Scots currently have some serious intelligent politicians who have put a lot of thought into the way a future, friendly, co-operative relationship with England could work. The English do not and the current lot especially will be vindictive, insulting and combative in their approach. If it happens, let's hope Starmer is PM.

My personal preference would be for Westminster to embrace PR for the Commons and have a half elected/half appointed HOL with longer terms of office than the Commons and some constitutional powers over the Commons in some matters.
 
Lefty said:
The problem is the Scots currently have some serious intelligent politicians who have put a lot of thought into the way a future, friendly, co-operative relationship with England could work. The English do not and the current lot especially will be vindictive, insulting and combative in their approach. If it happens, let's hope Starmer is PM.

My personal preference would be for Westminster to embrace PR for the Commons and have a half elected/half appointed HOL with longer terms of office than the Commons and some constitutional powers over the Commons in some matters.
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Sturgeon could be in bother with her hubby regarding half truths. Evidently they never talk politics at home.
 
Whether you agree with it or not, all countries have the right to self determination. The EU referendum was also a often described "as a once in a generation decision", it didn't stop people petitioning for a second one
 
Londons_Moggie said:
Whether you agree with it or not, all countries have the right to self determination. The EU referendum was also a often described "as a once in a generation decision", it didn't stop people petitioning for a second one
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One thing I did agree with on the referendum is that although Brexiters were talking absolute provable gash that in 1973 they were told that they were only entering a Trade Bloc, it is certainly true that over time any entity may have evolved differently to expectations or in a completely new direction or even too far down a certain road, so it does make sense to periodically stop and take a moment to ask if people no longer want to be part of what it has become. That is probably what Leavers meant, they just weren't adept enough at framing their position that way and resorted instead to bullsh1t about being lied to in 1973/74, when in fact anyone reasonably well informed about the EU/EEC question would have remembered that it was precisely because the EEC was both a political bloc and trading one that we set up EFTA as a rival purely trading bloc, not to mention that the first aim of the EEC was to maintain peace in Western Europe. That, by it's very nature, is a political aim.
 
Lefty said:
One thing I did agree with on the referendum is that although Brexiters were talking absolute provable gash that in 1973 they were told that they were only entering a Trade Bloc, it is certainly true that over time any entity may have evolved differently to expectations or in a completely new direction or even too far down a certain road, so it does make sense to periodically stop and take a moment to ask if people no longer want to be part of what it has become. That is probably what Leavers meant, they just weren't adept enough at framing their position that way and resorted instead to bullsh1t about being lied to in 1973/74, when in fact anyone reasonably well informed about the EU/EEC question would have remembered that it was precisely because the EEC was both a political bloc and trading one that we set up EFTA as a rival purely trading bloc, not to mention that the first aim of the EEC was to maintain peace in Western Europe. That, by it's very nature, is a political aim.
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Except EFTA is not a purely Trading bloc.
EU is a Single Market AND a Customs Union.
EFTA is that EU Single Market according to same rules as EU, determined by EU. Those rules are not purely economic and certainly not purely trading.

You are right that Organisations evolve and that is fine.
You are also right that populations should have the right to determine whether they want to be part of what their Organisation has evolved into.
Major and Blair/Brown did not allow this.
It is also right that our population should have the future right to consider the next stages of evolution of that Organisation and decide what they want then.
And right for that Organisation to decide whether they want to extend an invitation to join.
 
indeedido said:
I think this is true and fair.
If an SNP landslide occurs in the forthcoming election then they surely have the right to vote again.
I do not see an easy return to the EU for them and a huge problem in their relationship with past benefactor. I'm not sure when push comes to shove they will vote Leave UK. If they do, then we should respect it. We should also then ensure the Rest of UK is prioritised completely in our thinking; Scotland should not be our concern.

I am more of the view that Ireland will be united first. Again, if this is NI's wish (and Ireland's) then it should happen.

Personally I hope the UK continues in full, but would prefer a Great Britain to a UK of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
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An rUK of England, Wales and NI sort of feels like it's not really the UK anymore. Its a weird combination. But it could happen. Without Scotland is it really a 'United Kingdom'?

Interesting that you point out about Ireland's feelings. Do they even want the 6 counties back now? I feel like NI may want to move to some kind of hybrid option where they have a foot in both camps and on both islands. Kind of like they have now but with a more refined/formal definition.
 
atypical_boro said:
An rUK of England, Wales and NI sort of feels like it's not really the UK anymore. Its a weird combination. But it could happen. Without Scotland is it really a 'United Kingdom'?

Interesting that you point out about Ireland's feelings. Do they even want the 6 counties back now? I feel like NI may want to move to some kind of hybrid option where they have a foot in both camps and on both islands. Kind of like they have now but with a more refined/formal definition.
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It was kind of my point atypical - re Rest of UK, hence my greater affection for Great Britain.
NI might or might not want a United Ireland.
Similarly RoI. Both would have to want the marriage.
I hope we stay together, but respect those who don't.
 
We shouldn’t forget that Scotland was recognised as an independent sovereign nation some time before the act of union in 1707.
 
I wouldn't be against, or surprised, to see a very loosely defined 'UK' in the future, with 4 largely independent nations, with autonomy, but with a sort of 'Commonwealth style' pact that respects the close ties/proximites between the nations and allows for free trade and movement. I would quite like us to compete as separate nations in sporting events now to be honest.

This would enable NI to have that foot in both camps that I think they'd be happier with.

It may be that Wales want to remain in marriage with England, but the other two I suspect probably won't after the dust has settled from Covid and Brexit.
 
Let them have their Referendum. UK government should not be blocking this right to self determination. It was fine for them to call a Referendum on EU membership. Scots should have a democratic right to leave the UK and rejoin the EU if they so wish.
 
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