Scottish and Irish Independence

Except EFTA is not a purely Trading bloc.
EU is a Single Market AND a Customs Union.
EFTA is that EU Single Market according to same rules as EU, determined by EU. Those rules are not purely economic and certainly not purely trading.

You are right that Organisations evolve and that is fine.
You are also right that populations should have the right to determine whether they want to be part of what their Organisation has evolved into.
Major and Blair/Brown did not allow this.
It is also right that our population should have the future right to consider the next stages of evolution of that Organisation and decide what they want then.
And right for that Organisation to decide whether they want to extend an invitation to join.

I don't deny that there is barely anything that is purely an economic choice/decision/consideration. Whether we like it or not politics enter everything, otherwise we would be an entirely libertarian capitalist world with a free market race to the bottom. However having to engage with an organisation that has more political considerations or components doesn't mean you are political, it just means you are engaging with a political organisation. If you trade with a country they will have tariffs for a reason and that reason will be a mixture of economics and politics.

Never the less, we set EFTA up as a rival to the EEC because we wanted an economic free trade organisation and the EEC wasn't that because its founders were intelligent enough to realise trade and economics don't exist in a vacuum.

The mission and history of EFTA is distinctly different to that of the EEC and we chose EFTA, chose in fact to set up EFTA, because we didn't like the political union aspect of the EEC. We later wanted to join the EEC for our own economic reasons ie the EEC was doing well and we weren't. For Brexiters to complain that when we joined the EEC, or voted to confirm our approval in the early 70's the political aspect and aim of the organisation was kept secret from them is utter nonsense. The European question had been debated in Parliament and the media for a good 15 years prior to us joining the EEC. Those oldies claiming they weren't told the EEC was more than a Trading Bloc when they voted in 1974 are simply displaying they were ignorant then, which I can well believe given they are either still ignorant now or disingenuous.

I'm sure I've posted this or something very similar before over the last four years, but here is a twitter thread from the excellent Steve Analyst who sets out the history with evidence and facts (an anathema to many brexiters I know) to back it up.

 
An rUK of England, Wales and NI sort of feels like it's not really the UK anymore. Its a weird combination. But it could happen. Without Scotland is it really a 'United Kingdom'?

Interesting that you point out about Ireland's feelings. Do they even want the 6 counties back now? I feel like NI may want to move to some kind of hybrid option where they have a foot in both camps and on both islands. Kind of like they have now but with a more refined/formal definition.
The majority of people in Northern Ireland can already get an Irish Passport and dual nationality. Anyone who was born on the Island of Ireland including NI (or one parent or grandparent was) can get an Irish Passport . So the NI situation is not the same as Scotland, the Northern Irish already have the ability to retain many EU membership rights by applying for an Irish Passport
 
We keep referring to Scotland as “they”. As far as I’m concerned they should still be referred to us as “we”. Many English people have deep Scottish heritage. I suspect a lot don’t know how many connections in their family have. I do and I am a kiwi.
 
Good grief let them have independence. We can then change the M6 to a single track, put a passport control on all trains, take the £ off them within a week, base their borrowing on the Bartlett formula, and put a tariff on all goods of say 300%, stop the BBC on day one, let them repay the RBS loan, the even better news is that Celtic and Rangers will never join the English league.

As for the polls, the Scottish guy about 50 with long hair who does the BBC history programmes said he is British and will vote against any independence, he was spat at and had his windows put in.
 
I don't deny that there is barely anything that is purely an economic choice/decision/consideration. Whether we like it or not politics enter everything, otherwise we would be an entirely libertarian capitalist world with a free market race to the bottom. However having to engage with an organisation that has more political considerations or components doesn't mean you are political, it just means you are engaging with a political organisation. If you trade with a country they will have tariffs for a reason and that reason will be a mixture of economics and politics.

Never the less, we set EFTA up as a rival to the EEC because we wanted an economic free trade organisation and the EEC wasn't that because its founders were intelligent enough to realise trade and economics don't exist in a vacuum.

The mission and history of EFTA is distinctly different to that of the EEC and we chose EFTA, chose in fact to set up EFTA, because we didn't like the political union aspect of the EEC. We later wanted to join the EEC for our own economic reasons ie the EEC was doing well and we weren't. For Brexiters to complain that when we joined the EEC, or voted to confirm our approval in the early 70's the political aspect and aim of the organisation was kept secret from them is utter nonsense. The European question had been debated in Parliament and the media for a good 15 years prior to us joining the EEC. Those oldies claiming they weren't told the EEC was more than a Trading Bloc when they voted in 1974 are simply displaying they were ignorant then, which I can well believe given they are either still ignorant now or disingenuous.

I'm sure I've posted this or something very similar before over the last four years, but here is a twitter thread from the excellent Steve Analyst who sets out the history with evidence and facts (an anathema to many brexiters I know) to back it up.

Trade and economics indeed do not exist in a vacuum, but the politics that overlaps/encases them has to be open to question, not just snowball unchallenged.
I suspect you and I will never agree and that's fine.
 
As for the polls, the Scottish guy about 50 with long hair who does the BBC history programmes said he is British and will vote against any independence, he was spat at and had his windows put in.

That lad has a laundry list of reasons why that might have happened though. He is bananas.
 
I doubt they would vote leave. I hope not anyway. It would be a dark day for Scotland and the rest of the UK too imho. The EU would love it were it to fragment. Stronger together applies. I really do not see how they could make it financially viable unless they see Edinburgh replacing the City of London somehow. I see it playing out like Catalonia. I can’t see the Supreme Court supporting an unauthorised referendum. The UK Govt needs to do far more than it currently is though.
 
Good grief let them have independence. We can then change the M6 to a single track, put a passport control on all trains, take the £ off them within a week, base their borrowing on the Bartlett formula, and put a tariff on all goods of say 300%, stop the BBC on day one, let them repay the RBS loan, the even better news is that Celtic and Rangers will never join the English league.

As for the polls, the Scottish guy about 50 with long hair who does the BBC history programmes said he is British and will vote against any independence, he was spat at and had his windows put in.
Why would you want to do any of that? Do you want to be worse off? Why do you think ( for example) that the GB pound is not Scottish too?
 
Trade and economics indeed do not exist in a vacuum, but the politics that overlaps/encases them has to be open to question, not just snowball unchallenged.
I suspect you and I will never agree and that's fine.

No, I do agree with you and there should have been periodical referendums on continued membership, though more maturely handled than the 2016 one and with a higher threshold. My complaint about the referendum was never about the principle, though I do think it was a problem for some Remainers as they knew the reason for it was to tackle a Conservative Party issue. Had there been a scheduled referendum on continued membership every 15 years or so it would have focused pro-EU politicians and Governments to acknowledge it's benefits from time to time rather than blame it for it's own deficiencies or be blase about the media lies, knowing they could have an impact some years down the line.
 
The majority of people in Northern Ireland can already get an Irish Passport and dual nationality. Anyone who was born on the Island of Ireland including NI (or one parent or grandparent was) can get an Irish Passport . So the NI situation is not the same as Scotland, the Northern Irish already have the ability to retain many EU membership rights by applying for an Irish Passport
I know that, but regardless of your passport, you’re still governed by Westminster. It still Westminster thats telling you what to do, not really Belfast, Dublin and definitely not Brussels.
 
It does appear to be drawing nearer. Sunday Times poll shows SNP landslide predicted for Holyrood. It will be a sad day for me, but hopefully we English can be adult about this sort of break up and future relationship for a change.

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As long as we know where to lay the responsibility for the future England and Wales ; as a failed ultra right wing state ran by elites and controlled media right wing Shyte
 
I see that BloJo is off up to Scotland soon on a "charm offensive" to try and defuse the calls for Scottish independence 😬
Call it a gut feeling but I don't think it's going to help matters :)
 
In 2014 the jocks were lead to believe they’d be independent of England, welcomed with open arms in to the EU, keep the £ and have no liability for their (rather large) share of the National Debt. Fortunately enough seen through it and voted to stay. The whole NI border with EU Eire situation would be 10x worse in this situation and I’d like to think the jocks would see sense again. England would be ok in a leave situation, Scotland would suffer but we are both stronger together
 
Let them have their Referendum. UK government should not be blocking this right to self determination. It was fine for them to call a Referendum on EU membership. Scots should have a democratic right to leave the UK and rejoin the EU if they so wish.
What makes you think the EU would want them?
Last time I looked they did not fulfill the criteria required.
 
What criteria don't they meet? If North Macedonia is in line for accession, I think Scotland would be.

Also, rUK bordered by Scotland and Ireland would be even more in the EU's pocket.
To quote

As an obligation of membership, Scotland would have to make a good faith commitment to join the euro. However, despite its pro-European sentiment, the euro is remarkably unpopular in Scotland. Opinion polls suggest that only 18 per cent of people believe that an independent Scotland should take up the single currency. Committing to the euro would therefore be politically challenging. The currency is a highly salient issue in the independence debate and reflects the strong economic focus which pervades Scottish and British politics. Nevertheless, Scotland would have to confront the political and strategic consequences of not being part of the eurozone, given it has increasingly become the locus for future integration.

On top of which its budget deficit would be too high.

However I wish them good luck
I will have to research "Is Scotland an asset to the UK or a burden to the UK"
My intuition thinks burden but I might be wrong


what it would take
 
Let them have their Referendum. UK government should not be blocking this right to self determination. It was fine for them to call a Referendum on EU membership. Scots should have a democratic right to leave the UK and rejoin the EU if they so wish.

I generally agree. However, I have some sympathy with Scots who want to remain part of the UK, who will feel that the SNP are going to keep pressing for referenda until they get the one result they want, and then that will be it for all time.

Any future referendum should include a commitment to remain part of the UK for 25 years if they do not choose independence.

I'm not sure that voting SNP is the same as a vote for independence. Many do it because they currently see Sturgeon as the most competent option in Holyrood.
 
Regarding referendums, by their nature, they rarely satisfy everybody. (see Brexit obviously) Rather than having a simple majority ( say 51:49 %) defining the outcome, why not specify in future a 2/3 rds majority "wins", otherwise the status quo remains in place. I suspect most people, being conservative (with a small "c"),would accept such a result without the animosity that currently prevails.
In the case of any future Scottish referendum, why are ex-patriate Scots not allowed to vote? There must be hundreds of thousands of such individuals to whom this is vitally important.. perhaps even more so than non Scottish residents? I would suspect that such individuals would have a more rational view on independence, being farther removed from the misplaced credo of the SNP.
 
it is certainly true that over time any entity may have evolved differently to expectations or in a completely new direction or even too far down a certain road, so it does make sense to periodically stop and take a moment to ask if people no longer want to be part of what it has become.

Problem with the EU is that when the people said they didn't want to travel down that road (rejection of EU constitution) they just ignored them & carried on regardless (Lisbon treaty) and this time denying the people a chance to object (other than the Irish of course who they made vote again because they didn't come up with the right answer first time round).
 
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