zaphod
Active member
I'd like to point out that I've attacked no-one and been subjected to a stream of abuse and hatred for posting my legitimate opinions. This sort of thing should be stopped.
You Gov Poll on migrants
- Thread starter Lefty
- Start date
WeeGord
Well-known member
It wasn't directed at anyone in particular and I'm sorry if you feel its directed at you. It was a generic response to El Guapos post because I don't believe that abhorrent views and opinions should go unchallenged.
Primus84
Well-known member
Unfortunately whilst our cousins elsewhere in the EU do take a large amount of these migrants (way more than we do) there is a reason for them to flee France (who despite what zaphod thinks don't upheld their rights or treat them fairly):
https://www.dw.com/en/france-police-dismantle-migrant-camp-in-paris-suburb/a-54366056
They've had them living in makeshift camps in tents without sanitary facilities and then when they decide to close the camps they aren't gentle and respectful with people they're hitting them with batons etc.
https://www.dw.com/en/france-police-dismantle-migrant-camp-in-paris-suburb/a-54366056
They've had them living in makeshift camps in tents without sanitary facilities and then when they decide to close the camps they aren't gentle and respectful with people they're hitting them with batons etc.
WindyNook
Well-known member
Check your DNA non of us are British. Movement around the globe started with a stroll out of Africa.
We of the first world have got it cushy people of the third world have got nowt. The gap between the haves and the have nots is only growing. They have absolutely nothing to lose they even see their own lives as cheap.
This is not going to stop until the have nots have got a life that they value in the place that they live. But is that politically and economically viable for the first world, I doubt it.
So the people who moan about "illegal" immigrants are just going to have to put up with them cos they ain't going away the numbers are only going to increase.
We of the first world have got it cushy people of the third world have got nowt. The gap between the haves and the have nots is only growing. They have absolutely nothing to lose they even see their own lives as cheap.
This is not going to stop until the have nots have got a life that they value in the place that they live. But is that politically and economically viable for the first world, I doubt it.
So the people who moan about "illegal" immigrants are just going to have to put up with them cos they ain't going away the numbers are only going to increase.
WeeGord
Well-known member
Lefty
Well-known member
Hmm.
Earlier you answered my OP with
'So, Lefty, you take the view that people leaving a safe country to enter another country illegally deserve sympathy?'
and
'So you support illegal immigration?'
When you did answer you said 'not much sympathy because they don't need to do it, because they're perfectly safe where they are. They put themselves and their families in danger for no good reason.'
Aren't there some classic logical fallacies in here?
The question was just about sympathy for those migrants crossing the channel and you have introduced a straw man fallacy that the issue is about whether I support illegal immigration. You've also I think introduced an ad ignorantiam fallacy because you've introduced a specific belief (they are perfectly safe) as being true because you don't know that it isn't true. So there is a bit of motivated reasoning going on there.
Or maybe it's me guilty of all that. I don't think so though as I've just stuck to the point and question.
My point for posting this poll was about the apparent lack of humanity/sympathy/empathy we seem to be showing as a nation. There is, in my opinion, a manipulation going on by the Right, in order to stir up negative irrational emotions of fear and distrust of 'others' because that is something that works with those who are more Right leaning than those who are Left leaning.
Muttley
Well-known member
Ben and Jerry's (yes the ice cream company) had the following on their twitter feed
People wouldn’t make dangerous journeys if they had any other choice. The UK hasn’t resettled any refugees since March, but wars and violence continue. What we need is more safe and legal routes.
People cannot be illegal. And, it is enshrined in the 1951 Refugee Convention that crossing a border ‘illegally’ should not impact your asylum claim
‘Stronger’ borders aren’t the answer and only puts more lives at risk.
We know experts at organisations like @RefugeeAction want to talk solutions with Ministers, so why not have these conversations?
Let’s remember we’re all human and have the same rights to life regardless of the country we happen to have been born in.
...and once more for the back: PEOPLE CANNOT BE ILLEGAL.
People wouldn’t make dangerous journeys if they had any other choice. The UK hasn’t resettled any refugees since March, but wars and violence continue. What we need is more safe and legal routes.
People cannot be illegal. And, it is enshrined in the 1951 Refugee Convention that crossing a border ‘illegally’ should not impact your asylum claim
‘Stronger’ borders aren’t the answer and only puts more lives at risk.
We know experts at organisations like @RefugeeAction want to talk solutions with Ministers, so why not have these conversations?
Let’s remember we’re all human and have the same rights to life regardless of the country we happen to have been born in.
...and once more for the back: PEOPLE CANNOT BE ILLEGAL.
No mate, you have trolled and provoked. You know you have. You have posted an opinion, not backed it up with any factual arguments when asked to just kept feeding "clever" one liners. And then tried to claim victimhood.
I think the trolls and Tory shills are finding it much harder to maintain their presence on here.
LaPennaBianca
Well-known member
International law dictates the UK do have an obligation to help these people. Trying to stop people from arriving and making that claim is shirking an international responsibility. A 'global Britain' shouldn't have spiteful exclusion at the centre of its morality.
Does that including Hungary, Poland, Czechs. Not all EU countries are some welcoming.
NYboro
Well-known member
Unfortunately, it does - a central tenet of May's policies on immigration.
Primus84
Well-known member
There are certainly countries that could do far more yes. However this isn't a race to the bottom, we're better than that, we should treat people with respect and fairness.
zaphod
Active member
The French have an asylum system just as we do (and it has its failings just as ours does), but many migrants are not entitled to asylum as they are economic migrants and some (smallish numbers) who are entitled to asylum don't apply because they want to come to UK. The European Court of Human Rights has demanded that France treats asylum seekers better.
https://www.dw.com/en/european-huma...ce-for-treatment-of-asylum-seekers/a-54026049
Primus84
Well-known member
So when you said "they were perfectly safe in France" would you now accept that you were wrong?
WeeGord
Well-known member
So aspire to be amongst the worst in class rather than the best?
zaphod
Active member
Of course they're safe from being attacked and killed and otherwise persecuted.
Primus84
Well-known member
But as I've already demonstrated they're not safe since they're living in dangerous conditions and then being beaten by the French law enforcement agencies.