YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!

:rolleyes: Deary me. Again. Same disingenuous allegation how many times now?

Lets deal in facts and honesty, and go step by step.

1) Does anybody deny that Starmer has changed the party in a number of ways since becoming leader?

2) Does anybody deny that part of those changes has been to move policy to the right? Even if you think its still left wing or centre left or whatever you'd call it. Nobody thinks the party's policies are more left wing now than they were under the previous leadership do they?

3) Isn't it therefore logical that some people would exist to the party's left now? Isn't it valid that socialists might have criticisms of the current party?
So in the spirit of objectivity:

1) No
2) No
3) Yes

Then:

1) I would argue for the better, significantly
2) But to Left of Centre, not to the Right of Centre
3) If you're honest, you're not as critical of the Party as you are of Starmer
 
Ah right. Do as I say, not as I do eh? Exiled can be slandered as a tory but heaven forfend that I use the C word? 😜
Exiled is on my ignore list not because he holds an opposing point of view but that he is unwilling or incapable of intelligent debate. In answer to a detailed post that I made in response to him twisting Starmer's words he simply ignored the bulk of my post and selectively quoted me then twisted my words. As I said I'm not sure of he is a shill or a troll. Frankly, I don't care he's getting his own kicks out of this. His entire approach on this thread has been trolling. The "So what you're basically saying is..." approach. Frankly I don't have the inclination to attempt debate with someone who will not address the points I have made. I won't even go into the "who started it?" thing.
 
Corbyn had plenty of open goals too, up against weak government, but didn't really convert anything.

Corbyn has the record for the most opposition defeats of a government in Parliament. And the largest defeat.

They whinge about abandoning policies (or pledges), but don't recognise that the last policies lost

The pledges people talk about were made by Starmer in 2020 in the leadership contest. When people say he's broken his pledges they aren't saying anything about the 2019 election manifesto. I really don't get why you pretend not to understand that.

Why not just take it on the chin as a fair criticism? He lied to win the leadership.

There doesn't seem to be much recognition that there's been a pandemic, war, energy crisis, increase in debt and now also another recession etc

This is just stupid. You need to get it in to your head that the people advocating for left wing policies are doing so cause they think those policies would actually be better for us. So for example with nationalising energy, the capitalist model's *rse falling out in a crisis is more reason to nationalise. Not less. It's not that we all secretly think nationalising the sector would be a really bad thing and we need to have a massively surging economy before we can indulge in it. If we're in a crisis, the change becomes more urgent.
 
Well, go on then? What do you have in mind? :unsure:
it's completely off topic, but funding of schemes like surestart is a great example of something that is anti-right wing. His continued heavy funding of police and NHS are other good examples. The fact that true capitalists under funded these things when they came into power, shows the difference between Blairs moderate socialism and Tory capitalism.

Anyway back too this debate about the now. Starmer needs to get elected prove himself and then in a second term start to pus more socialism
 
Surestart was announced in 1998 and launched in 1999. It's an example of what I was saying. The best, more left wing stuff you'll get out of a Labour government will be in the first couple of years. After that it drifts into consolidation.
 
Corbyn has the record for the most opposition defeats of a government in Parliament. And the largest defeat.



The pledges people talk about were made by Starmer in 2020 in the leadership contest. When people say he's broken his pledges they aren't saying anything about the 2019 election manifesto. I really don't get why you pretend not to understand that.

Why not just take it on the chin as a fair criticism? He lied to win the leadership.

This is just stupid. You need to get it in to your head that the people advocating for left wing policies are doing so cause they think those policies would actually be better for us. So for example with nationalising energy, the capitalist model's *rse falling out in a crisis is more reason to nationalise. Not less. It's not that we all secretly think nationalising the sector would be a really bad thing and we need to have a massively surging economy before we can indulge in it. If we're in a crisis, the change becomes more urgent.
Aye, largely because the Tories were so insistent on fighting themselves. How many of his own policies did he get in place?

Yes, 2020, before Covid, the War, Energy Crisis, Recession, do I need to go on? Should we enact the Labour policy from 1922? It's about as relevant. Some of the pledges will probably come back in the manifesto, some might get watered down, but they will be far better than the Tory alternatives.

He didn't lie, the world changed, and policies have to change with the times. You're trying to pick holes in someone who has been at the helm for a massive swing in labour popularity, and you're doing that without ignoring the failures of the guy who lost two elections.

I'm not saying more left-wing policies wouldn't be better, of course it would, especially for the vast majority who need them most, implying I think otherwise is disingenuous.

Kier Starmer will enact more left-wing policies than Corbyn, but even if you don't accept this then you have to accept that he will prevent right/ far-right policies as he will win.
The point is you need to win, to enact any of them, and the more you win by, the more freedom you will get with this.

I'm largely for Nationalising energy as a long-term plan (probably at least a decade or two), but I realise this is practically impossible anytime soon, as we don't own what we import, and we're going to need those imports for a long while yet. Can we move away from this model, and only use what we produce ourselves in the next 7 years (2 Tory, 5 Labour), possibly, but not likely. We likely won't have the money to do it (without hurting other areas), we don't have the labour or construction capacity to do it either, not without taking resources from other areas like infrastructure, house building, maintenance etc. To get the labour and efficient construction we would need freedom of movement, and closer ties with the EU on materials and such, effectively cancelling Brexit. If we did that it would possibly mean labour losing the 2030 election. So then you're back to Tories, doing Tory things, and the far right uprising again.
By the time we got everything nationalised and only used what we produce ourselves the energy crisis will no longer exist, as it will be solved by technology and green energy, whether the fossil fuel companies like it or not. The business model of buying out fossil fuel companies at their most expensive (and when they're not for sale), knowing full well energy prices and company values, as well as fossil fuel use will come back down is not a good investment. Just tax the hell out of the fossil fuel companies, and gradually build more renewables which we own ourselves. Take back control of Gas, Water, Electric, Telecom grids, but only if that's going to be profitable over 20-30 years, based on future expected energy prices.
 
I don’t want to add to the bickering but the Starmer supporters have once again shown they don’t respect people who don’t share their views. “Sad, juvenile, dreamers, losers, shrill and callings people Tories with an agenda”. I used to love Labour meetings when I went but I don’t recognise this abusive hating side that the remainers have brought. It’s toxic

Just to clarify, since I was the one that used the phrase 'the previous incarnation of the Labour Party under Corbyn and his dreamers.'

The 2017 Election Manifesto was great, but it was a work of common sense and pragmatic compromise, even though . Corbyn and the project were under siege internally within the Party from those not of the Left, both the moderates and centrists and the often nastier Blairite and Brownite factions. There was no dreaming going on, the project was grounded in reality.

The dreaming came after the 2017 election. Not by all. McDonnell and Fisher in particular deserve praise and respect for keeping their eye on the ball, appreciating reality and rather than ignoring or pretending Brexit wasn't a fundamental issue, they knew policy and strategy had to reflect what was happening in the country. McDonnell was at least as important to the project as project, even more of the brains behind it, yet his nous and pragmatism and reality was sidelined fatally by the Corbyn believers.

It's always the same, the further left you go, the more certain the ideology and the more perfect it's enactment has to be, which means it fails when it bumps up against the reality and the human nature of others.
 
With expected polling numbers it just doesn't make any sense to try and win the centre right voters by being less left-wing. The Tories are so unelectable that there will never be a better chance to win an election while also appealing to the base instead of the opposition. Throw a few crumbs to the centre but concentrate on the left instead of the other way around. If we are in this position and still not moving left then to think there is any possibility of winning and then moving left in the future is delusional. It will never happen.
 
Andy you said Corbyn lost the last general election. Can you just answer what Labours remain option included?
He lost the last two general elections and was in power for around a year leading into the Brexit vote.

Obviously, the last Labour leader to win a majority of seats, and not lose an election, was Blair, and I expect the die-hard Corbyn fans were not exactly in favour of him either. Had he not appealed more to the centre, and less to the left, he likely wouldn't have won either, as it's basically not possible with the makeup of UK voters. Even the biggest of Labour Blair haters should say he was still a million miles better than the 5 tory PM's we've had since (I think it's 5, losing count nowadays).

From memory, I think Labour's stance was weakly pro-remain, eventually, but remember it wasn't specifically clear or consistent, or at least it did not make it that way to the public, as most seemed to have no idea. The general public isn't going to listen to every word or interview from Corbyn (or Starmer), never mind actually read what the Labour website (or even manifesto) is saying. A lot of us on here would, bt that's not a true reflection of the public of course.
Of course, Corbyn had been a Eurosceptic for some time, and Cameron (an undoubtedly known remainer) quit after the UK voted out.
 
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Surestart was announced in 1998 and launched in 1999. It's an example of what I was saying. The best, more left wing stuff you'll get out of a Labour government will be in the first couple of years. After that it drifts into consolidation.
your argument is that all left government consolidate and don't move further left. The issue is the only example you have is Blair's government because labour have never been in for 2 full terms before. So the 'evience' for the claim is thin at best. Blairs government funded things that the tories got rid of, and some of them they funded heavier in the second and third terms. But regardless to claim Starmer cannot deliver more left in a second term, because it's never been done before is fallacious as there simply isn't the evidence to support that claim. It's an opinion, and, that's fine, but there are other opinions too that are equally valid.
 
Labour had their worst electoral defeat in 80 years in 2019 - handing the Tories a massive majority - but Corbyn supporters (who clearly don't like Labour being so far ahead in the opinion polls) say they 'won the argument'
 
I forgot my point 🤩

2019 - 10’269.051 Corbyn
20017 - 12’877.918 Corbyn
2015. - 9’347.273 Milliband
2010 - 8’609.527 Brown
2005 - 9’552.436 Blair
Just out of interest exiled, how do those numbers translate into % of vote? Honestly, I don't know mate but it would be interesting to know.
 
I forgot my point 🤩

2019 - 10’269.051 Corbyn
20017 - 12’877.918 Corbyn
2015. - 9’347.273 Milliband
2010 - 8’609.527 Brown
2005 - 9’552.436 Blair

The reason I put Labours most recent general election results by total votes was to make the point that the counter argument seems to be BECAUSE of 2019 the correct thing is to go back to the centre

The first point is 2019 was Starmers remain versus remain in a second referendum - general election

The second is people aren’t/weren’t going out to vote Labour when it’s a centre party anymore. This is my opinion but I think that will happen again regardless of what the polls show

And I don’t think blaming Corbyn for 2019 being rejected is being honest. It’s also an opinion but I find it disingenuous

And there was another point that was EVEN if Labour won a majority between 1997 landslide election and 2010 labour lost 4’908.640 votes

Even if Blair stood in 2010 he would probably have lost. The point being if Starmer gets in he will almost certainly lose voters of he doesn’t make change

That’s my opinion 🤷🏻‍♂️
2019 - 10’269.051 Corbyn lost, BJ the clown got 13,966,454
20017 - 12’877.918 Corbyn lost, May, Largely hated (own party and the public) still got 13,636,684
2015. - 9’347.273 Milliband lost, Cameron got 11,299,609
2010 - 8’609.527 Brown lost, Cameron got 10,703,754
2005 - 9’552.436 Blair won, Howard got 8,784,915
2001 - 10,724,953 Blair won, Hague got 8,357,615
1997 - 13,518,167 Blair won, Major got 9,600,943

Why list the numbers without listing the numbers of the opposite side? I added Blair's other two wins, to give a bit more info.

Increasing your voter numbers is completely pointless if the opposition are increasing also.
The two most votes there on that list are against Corbyn, even including when Blair battered the Tories in 1997.

The system is about seats though, which Corbyn and anyone commenting here is fully aware of.

People will always vote for the centre, that's where the most people sit. If you don't cover the centre you lose, it's that simple. The population is getting older, and more Tory, it's crap but we have to face up to that fact. Brexit stirred up a hornets nest too, we also have to accept that, and the hornets are scared it will get taken away, so we need to tread carefully with that. Not great, and not what I want, but it's reality.

Blair would have probably lost in 2010, the press framed the recession as Labour's fault, there was no way of winning that one, and they had three stints, which is good going.

Starmer might lose voters, but I don't care, if the Tories lose more and they keep a strong seat buffer.
 
Andy you must know where I’m heading with this

You said 2019 was lost because of Corbyn.

But would you agree that Labours second referendum policy was to renegotiate a withdrawal agreement (that the EU had ruled out)

Negotiate with the EU and remain in the SM/CU and allow the EU to negotiate our trade policies on our behalf, align on worker and environmental laws remain in the ECHR and pay a membership fee. Stay in the programmes and keep freedom of movement and whatever else I’ve forgotten

And then put all that against a remain option?

I mean, don’t you think that could be the difference between 2017 and 2019? 🤷🏻‍♂️
2019 wasn't lost because of Corbyn, but equally, he didn't do anything to win it either, which is why they lost. That was always going to be a tough one mind, as the loons had took over the asylum, but that's just how it is, you need to adapt to that (which he didn't). Because he didn't adapt and due to other factors this created unrest in the party, so there was no way he could stay, the writing was on the wall.

Maybe he could have been treated better by MP's, but had he been Stronger and less of a target then he wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. Half the tory voters I know voted Tory because they were so scared of Corbyn, I don't even think they wanted to vote Tory, but they just hated Corbyn. We all know they didn't have much to fear, but they did, and that's just part of life with our press. Being less of a target is one of the boxes you have to tick to win, you have to give them nothing, or they will amplify it and use it against you.

Like I say, I wish it wasn't like that, and liked most of Corbyn's policies from what I can remember, and voted for him twice, but that's not the only battle, and thinking it is not realistic. I don't even think I publicly criticised him on Social media etc, as I know that wouldn't have helped in any way, just like how people going after KS won't.
 
Yes, 2020, before Covid, the War, Energy Crisis, Recession, do I need to go on? Should we enact the Labour policy from 1922?

Honestly this is just so stupid I don't know what to say to it. This is what I mean by cultists. You get people like Andy arguing for actual absurdisms.

It's 2022. Yes the pandemic was big news but it doesn't mean that anything said just two years when the pandemic was happening anyway suddenly is as irrelevent as a century ago. It's obviously, obviously, obviously not.

Re-read my post about energy policy. We've been over this before and you simply don't have an answer for it. The crisis of the capitalist model is more reason to change, not less. You can't invoke that a reason we suddenly all need to want tory economics ad infitum.
 
your argument is that all left government consolidate and don't move further left. The issue is the only example you have is Blair's government because labour have never been in for 2 full terms before. So the 'evience' for the claim is thin at best. Blairs government funded things that the tories got rid of, and some of them they funded heavier in the second and third terms. But regardless to claim Starmer cannot deliver more left in a second term, because it's never been done before is fallacious as there simply isn't the evidence to support that claim. It's an opinion, and, that's fine, but there are other opinions too that are equally valid.

You can see it within the single term Labour governments. (y)
 
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