Worst Excess Death and Economic stats in Europe

[newusername]

Likewise how can someone who had all the symptoms of Covid but was never tested be put down as pnuemonia. When my friend challenged it they offered to change the cause of death to unknown infection. Thats madness as well. She asked if they could do a covid test posthumously as the person was living with an elderly partner and was told "yes we can but its a bit of a mess about". Swings and roundabouts UKLL.

As we are all discovering accurately recording cause of death is more of an art than a science.
Arguably this clarification brings in as many questions as it solves, die 28 days after a positive test & it is a Covid death, die 29 days after one and it isn't.

 

[Cuthbert]

We have the highest excess death rate.View attachment 5625

Doesn't that France figure seem odd? - Given that they've also had tens of thousands of Covid deaths?

 

[TeaCider]

Doesn't that France figure seem odd? - Given that they've also had tens of thousands of Covid deaths?

I'm sure they had a lot of flu deaths last year.

I'd be interested to see the data up to August, rather than May, but no doubt we'll still be top in excess.
We're a very unhealthy nation by European standards.

 

[American_Mary]

The only figure that matters is excess deaths they seemed to have stabilised in the last month or so and the bottom line is that we’ve had 65k people who have died above the expected levels, I would say it’s fair to say that the majority of those cases will be linked either directly or indirectly to Covid.

As for the economy and understanding the need to help out I’m not convinced that there’s a long term strategy on how to recover the mountain of debt that has been accumulated, there are massive loopholes that need to closed otherwise we’re going to go into long term recession, high taxation and mass unemployment with all the devastation that brings, I know of people who have taken bounceback loans and are already preparing to close their companies and write off the debt.

Things like the eating out scheme are of no use to those struggling to make ends meet on a day to day basis and is at odds with the face mask policy imposed on other commercial enterprises, there doesn’t seem to be any joined up thinking or a linear arc to overall strategy which is a massive concern.

I think it’s fair to say that Johnson is a divisive figure who attracts extremes of hostility and support, and that his premiership has coincided with a very difficult period which has further polarised opinion, I think it’s reasonable to be against Johnson but understanding of the arduous task he has faced during the crisis but also a supporter of his and acknowledge that errors have been made.

 

[Cuthbert]

I'm sure they had a lot of flu deaths last year.

I'd be interested to see the data up to August, rather than May, but no doubt we'll still be top in excess.
We're a very unhealthy nation by European standards.

I don't dispute any of that. However, it made me wonder that if a country has high deaths normally, and then during this pandemic many of those normal deaths (from previously other causes) are attributed to or caused by Covid, then the excess deaths won't rise as much.

None of which takes away from the fact that the UK have done badly.

 

[Pog]

ST - it's absolutely about left and right mate.

The beginning of the OP: "Tory sympathizers and collaborators can indeed congratulate themselves on their English exceptionalism."

It's basically click bait... hoping for a response so that the vast majority (on here) can castigate it.

It's certainly not posted to encourage open minded political debate!!

Why not call it what it is?

They’re willing to sacrifice everything at the alter of Brexit, whether it be hundreds of thousands of people’s lives, the economy or the United Kingdom?

For what? Blue passports.

It certainly isn’t about being patriotic in being British, as we’re well on our way to destroying the United Kingdom. Scotland and Northern Ireland didn’t vote for this, one has had a border put down their sea and the other locked out of negotiations.

They’re be all right, with a United Ireland and Independent Scotland they’ll get to escape this little Englander Tory Death Cult soon.

Us in the North East aren’t so lucky.

 

[Cuthbert]

My point still stands that I don't believe you started this particular thread in order to have 'reasoned' debate? - Apologies if I'm wrong about that. However, more often on this forum, people have pre-formed views, their minds are closed, and they want to vent.

"Why not call it what it is? - They’re willing to sacrifice everything at the alter of Brexit, whether it be hundreds of thousands of people’s lives, the economy or the United Kingdom? - For what? Blue passports."

Regarding Brexit, immigration was one issue. There were numerous other issues too, and there were many people who were not certain which way to vote, right up to the day of the referendum.

I voted to remain, and I was gutted on the day of the result, and for some days afterwards. However, since then, the whole debate seems to have become more and more polarised, and more and more vitriolic.

In the pre-referendum campaigning, there were good reasons for remaining, and there were good reasons for leaving - to suggest that it was 100% either way just isn't true.

When you say things like this: "They’re be all right, with a United Ireland and Independent Scotland they’ll get to escape this little Englander Tory Death Cult soon" - again, I might be wrong, but it doesn't give the impression that you're about to discuss it rationally.

 

[BoroMart]

I think it's really odd that you can ali revel in the face of such terrible figures. It's almost like you are happy it's so bad so you can say what a mess the government have made of things.
That couldn't be right,could it.

it's called holding the government to account, I find your virtue signalling on this topic really odd but hey

 

[RavsDad]

Pog. Your rant is merely a brilliant demonstration of simple-minded and bigoted bias which is pretty typical of a number of comments on this thread. And managing to hijack a thread on Death & Economic stats to moan about Brexit again is quite a jump.

Let's take the accusation of the Government being willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people's lives for a change of passport colour. To be accurate you you might want to consider that the Government didn't vote for Brexit, a majority of the people did.

To move on to the accusations elsewhere that the Government is wholly responsible for all the deaths associated rightly or wrongly with Covid? Interesting, so not at all anything to do with those who chose to ignore lockdown and socialise, or riot, not socially distance or mistakes made in policy by our NHS? And only figures which are higher are correct and any lower figures are obvious lies? If that is the case some posters might want to delve a little deeper into those from Spain for instance.

This Government has got a number of things wrong during the pandemic but no Government in modern times has faced such a situation. Germany did much better on the figures but has a decentralised health care system. Several governments stood back from taking control and had different outcomes with their economy and effect on their economy and employment. Whilst a large majority of posters seem eager to lay the blame 100% at the Government's door for everything from deaths & infections to the economy they seem curiously reluctant to admit that mistakes were made by those outside Government too whilst furlough was an expensive but unexpected plus for many millions.

 

[Laughing]

Rav, whilst you make some good points, but there are some bits I have to take issue with. The first is that no government has faced such a situation clearly isn't true. No British government has, but disease control around the world happens from time to time in other areas of the world.

Secondly, deflecting responsibility away from the government, I am not having that. Regardless of how your population behaves or how different organizations handle things, the responsibility lies solely and 100% with the government. You can delegate tasks but never responsibility. I won't go into why the government got it's leadership badly wrong, that has been done to death, no pun intended.

The government could and should have done more, acted sooner, lead by example and been better prepared to name just three areas that were woeful.

 

[BoroMart]

To be accurate you you might want to consider that the Government didn't vote for Brexit, a majority of the people did.

This government, or more precisely the clowns that are the cabinet, did vote for brexit in multiple indicative votes. They just couldn't get enough MPs to agree with their version of brexit, so then when they won an election majority, they removed parliamentary involvement with brexit, because you know, parliament couldn't agree on what brexit meant, just like the people that voted for it don't. It's a coup of democratic process, checks and balances. Glad to clear that up though

 

[RavsDad]

Laughing. I take your point about acting sooner (but I seem to remember Chris Whitty theorising that to lock down too early would lead to a public becoming reluctant to persevere with it before we reached a peak). I would also agree that there has been some 'whack-a-mole' reactions since that time but would we have them do? Don't panic and carry on? This was a steep learning curve for everyone inside and outside Government. With luck we shall never know what a dogs' breakfast the Labour party would have made of this because hopefully we'll not see another pandemic on this scale in anyone's lifetime.

 

[Alvez_48]

We know the Tories are ****... It's obvious and has been to the left out in the cold north east for years.

I actually don't think Corbyn would have locked down, I think he would have gone for the Swedish approach and he'd have no worse numbers than we have now (possibly better if he had not shut down the NHS). He would be getting absolute **** storm for it in the press from all sides too. (I say this because he was refusing to shield for being 70 at the time in March)

See that's the difference with a man of principle, he does what he thinks is right, not what the media tells him to, to avoid being called mean names. I'm glad he's not in power because it would be painful seeing a man I respect savaged even more during this time.

 

[BoroMart]

breakfast the Labour party would have made of this because hopefully we'll not see another pandemic on this scale in anyone's lifetime.

Showing your colours, because the fact is no one knows, they may have done a far better job. They could hardly have done worse, even third world countries have done better than us

Lets deal in reality instead of deflection by hypothesis, and the reality is this government has utterly failed this test from PPE, communication to the public, protecting lives, care home tragedy, failing to follow their own rules and thus undermining it, general pandemic preparation, organising suppliers, track and trace application, track and trace service, testing failure, and on it goes.

 

[RavsDad]

BoroMart. Here's an idea. Why not start a separate thread on Brexit, possibly with Pog? Not sure that's been done. Then you could discuss how the Government won a huge majority when the only people who knew what they were voting for were those who voted Labour even though Labour didn't have a policy to vote for. And indeed no-one knows because as even many Labour party members agree they were simply unelectable. Perhaps you should also have a word with Alvez who has a hypothesis. Good job we didn't all follow the example a man of principle would have set.

 

[BoroMart]

BoroMart. Here's an idea. Why not start a separate thread on Brexit, possibly with Pog?

No need, fella, I was just putting your falsehood right, we'll have plenty of threads about the sh#tshow that is brexit in 4 months

 

[Pog]

Pog. Your rant is merely a brilliant demonstration of simple-minded and bigoted bias which is pretty typical of a number of comments on this thread. And managing to hijack a thread on Death & Economic stats to moan about Brexit again is quite a jump.

Let's take the accusation of the Government being willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people's lives for a change of passport colour. To be accurate you you might want to consider that the Government didn't vote for Brexit, a majority of the people did.

To move on to the accusations elsewhere that the Government is wholly responsible for all the deaths associated rightly or wrongly with Covid? Interesting, so not at all anything to do with those who chose to ignore lockdown and socialise, or riot, not socially distance or mistakes made in policy by our NHS? And only figures which are higher are correct and any lower figures are obvious lies? If that is the case some posters might want to delve a little deeper into those from Spain for instance.

This Government has got a number of things wrong during the pandemic but no Government in modern times has faced such a situation. Germany did much better on the figures but has a decentralised health care system. Several governments stood back from taking control and had different outcomes with their economy and effect on their economy and employment. Whilst a large majority of posters seem eager to lay the blame 100% at the Government's door for everything from deaths & infections to the economy they seem curiously reluctant to admit that mistakes were made by those outside Government too whilst furlough was an expensive but unexpected plus for many millions.

That’s the problem, everything this Vote Leave government does can be traced back to Brexit.

That’s the only reason they’re getting away with this nuclear grade incompetence, why despite having the highest excess death rate in Europe and the biggest drop in GDP nearly half the country is still waving their flag and cheering on ‘Boris’.

Brexit.

 

[Nero]

I work with a couple of Dutch lads and they reckon the Netherlands is managing the pandemic pretty similar to the UK. The UK Government have been poor at times, but it's hardly the easiest situation to deal with.

As for the reduction in GDP. It was always going to happen. Shutting down the Economy and shutting people at home is bad economic activity. The an economic model where services is huge, it was always going to be bad.

I was actually out last night for a family meal and the restaurant is booming again. That will be replicated in all towns and cities. Hopefully the country bounces back strongly.

 

[Laughing]

Laughing. I take your point about acting sooner (but I seem to remember Chris Whitty theorising that to lock down too early would lead to a public becoming reluctant to persevere with it before we reached a peak). I would also agree that there has been some 'whack-a-mole' reactions since that time but would we have them do? Don't panic and carry on? This was a steep learning curve for everyone inside and outside Government. With luck we shall never know what a dogs' breakfast the Labour party would have made of this because hopefully we'll not see another pandemic on this scale in anyone's lifetime.

That point about Chris Witty isn't true Rav, I watched a panorama documentary, and the lockdown fatigue theory was never documented in any report and seems to have developed almost on it's own, the behavioral insights team deny ever mentioning it. I understand why you would think that though as I did for a long time.

 

[Pog]

My point still stands that I don't believe you started this particular thread in order to have 'reasoned' debate? - Apologies if I'm wrong about that. However, more often on this forum, people have pre-formed views, their minds are closed, and they want to vent.

"Why not call it what it is? - They’re willing to sacrifice everything at the alter of Brexit, whether it be hundreds of thousands of people’s lives, the economy or the United Kingdom? - For what? Blue passports."

Regarding Brexit, immigration was one issue. There were numerous other issues too, and there were many people who were not certain which way to vote, right up to the day of the referendum.

I voted to remain, and I was gutted on the day of the result, and for some days afterwards. However, since then, the whole debate seems to have become more and more polarised, and more and more vitriolic.

In the pre-referendum campaigning, there were good reasons for remaining, and there were good reasons for leaving - to suggest that it was 100% either way just isn't true.

When you say things like this: "They’re be all right, with a United Ireland and Independent Scotland they’ll get to escape this little Englander Tory Death Cult soon" - again, I might be wrong, but it doesn't give the impression that you're about to discuss it rationally.

I’m not here to make false equivalences or referee an impartial debate.

This government has oversaw the deaths of tens of thousands of it’s citizens, and yet millions of people cheer them on whilst they continue to fail in just about every part of their response.

If it’s not a cult, what would you call it?