Who the f**** needs Europe. We have all we need here.

For illustration. Top one shows how much our exporters benefited. Included in the others are Japan, Singapore and Vietnam which have agreed EU deals since 2017.

68F3A497-84AF-4429-8427-71991088AC14.jpeg63796F54-2D88-4B0D-BB76-84C191F86E40.jpeg

The bottom graph shows how our consumers have benefited from EU membership.

What are we getting for giving all this up? How can you get better than zero tariffs and minimal bureaucracy?
 
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boromike85 said:
I remember when Labour supported the workers but now they defend landowners right to exploit people instead and look down on the working classes instead.
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You were born in 1985. So you're either you were a very precocious supporter of John Smith, or you're bang into Corbyn.

Almost as if you won't argue in good faith.

This is as bad as your 7 billion people are coming to UK fiasco.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
You were born in 1985. So you're either you were a very precocious supporter of John Smith, or you're bang into Corbyn.

Almost as if you won't argue in good faith.

This is as bad as your 7 billion people are coming to UK fiasco.
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Big fan of a lot of Corbyn's policies. Voted for Labour under his leadership twice. Also recognise that a big part of the failings at recent elections is due to the abandonment of the historically core Labour voters. Particularly the post-referendum vilification of brexiteers.


Lefty said:
Huh? What was that? That's everyone in the world pretty much.
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It's a(nother) misrepresentation. I said if you're not in favour of all 7bn people in the world being eligible for immigration to the UK then you are in favour of immigration control. Most people are in favour of control, they just haven't defined the number (or won't) and since brexit it has become taboo among remainers to admit there is a limit.
 
boromike85 said:
Big fan of a lot of Corbyn's policies. Voted for Labour under his leadership twice. Also recognise that a big part of the failings at recent elections is due to the abandonment of the historically core Labour voters. Particularly the post-referendum vilification of brexiteers.




It's a(nother) misrepresentation. I said if you're not in favour of all 7bn people in the world being eligible for immigration to the UK then you are in favour of immigration control. Most people are in favour of control, they just haven't defined the number (or won't) and since brexit it has become taboo among remainers to admit there is a limit.
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You're misrepresenting your own position.

You said that all 3m eligible from Hong Kong wouldn't come. So it stands to reason that all 7bn wouldn't come, just those that wished to and could find work.

People will always migrate - making them illegal is barbaric. And Mr Corbyn shares my opinion.

And for someone who has said their last word, you're noticeably chatty. Almost as if you're not that secure in your shaky arguments.
 
Regardless of the trade deals the politics inside the EU has become almost unbearable -- the on-going squabbles over the treaty for this and that, the obvious lack of leadership from the EU council not to mention currency wars with the Euro have fallen off the cliff, then there's still the issues regarding mounting debts with Italy, Greece and others-- the EU will be on knife edge soon with strikes and the possibility of other states following the UK's departure. I just think it's best we take a look at what's outside the EU -- you're not telling me that other trade deals can't be hammered out elsewhere which aren't politically loaded? It'll take a few years maybe decades to clean up the mess from the EU but in the end it'll be [hopefully] worth it.
 
Expat Smoggie said:
Regardless of the trade deals the politics inside the EU has become almost unbearable -- the on-going squabbles over the treaty for this and that, the obvious lack of leadership from the EU council not to mention currency wars with the Euro have fallen off the cliff, then there's still the issues regarding mounting debts with Italy, Greece and others-- the EU will be on knife edge soon with strikes and the possibility of other states following the UK's departure. I just think it's best we take a look at what's outside the EU -- you're not telling me that other trade deals can't be hammered out elsewhere which aren't politically loaded? It'll take a few years maybe decades to clean up the mess from the EU but in the end it'll be [hopefully] worth it.
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There is no deal anywhere like the Single Market. It’s long gone time you really should have understood this. What is more, even if we were to strike a deal exactly like the Single Market with the USA, who are our biggest trading partner (but nowhere near the size of the EU) it still won’t be as significant because of the distance. The gravity model of trade holds up time and again, around the world and through history. So all we are doing is putting massive barriers up to trade. In exchange for .......?

This is a question we have been asking for 4 years, without an answer.

As for the politics, actually the EU, while often quite lumbering, does eventually get to the right answers. The latest measures on tackling Covid are impressive.

C7993DBC-7939-4F87-AF8F-6123014AFB04.jpeg
 
Expat Smoggie said:
Regardless of the trade deals the politics inside the EU has become almost unbearable -- the on-going squabbles over the treaty for this and that, the obvious lack of leadership from the EU council not to mention currency wars with the Euro have fallen off the cliff, then there's still the issues regarding mounting debts with Italy, Greece and others-- the EU will be on knife edge soon with strikes and the possibility of other states following the UK's departure. I just think it's best we take a look at what's outside the EU -- you're not telling me that other trade deals can't be hammered out elsewhere which aren't politically loaded? It'll take a few years maybe decades to clean up the mess from the EU but in the end it'll be [hopefully] worth it.
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Thanks for making a sensible argument. I'll just address the points you made if I can.

1. Politics inside the EU

Basically the same as politics everywhere, politicians trying to gain advantage for their own states. It's their job and actually the fact that there are multiple hands on the steering wheel tends to make the course steadier than (for example) UK Government veering between the right and the left due to our two party system.

2. Currency wars with the Euro

I'm not sure what you mean here do you mean Euro v Sterling? Or the internal problems caused by rich nations and poor nations using the same currency?

3. Mounting debts with Italy, Greece and others

Only really a concern for those countries tied to the Euro. We were not, so it would not have affected us other than perhaps Sterling rising against the Euro

4. The EU will be on knife edge soon with strikes and the possibility of other states following the UK's departure.

The collapse of the EU has been "imminent" since before 2016, yet here we are. There will continue to be problems within the EU just as there are in the UK. Those problems will affect us just as much as non-members as it would have as members. I.e. perhaps significantly probably hardly at all.

5. You're not telling me that other trade deals can't be hammered out elsewhere which aren't politically loaded?

ALL trade deals are politically loaded. The USA aren't going to give us an amazingly beneficial trade deal out of the kindness of their hearts. They want what's in it for them.

Look my argument is not that the EU is some marvellous utopia that only the criminally insane would not want to be a part of. Indeed, I can understand wanting to leave the control of what seems like a cumbersome Government-by-committee organisation. What I cannot understand is the stupid headlong plummet towards leaving the Customs Union, the Single Market and giving up our Freedom of Movement. All of which could be part of a Norway type deal to keep us associated with but not a member of the EU. It is lunacy driven by a combination of Xenophobia and Political dogma.
 
Expat Smoggie said:
Regardless of the trade deals the politics inside the EU has become almost unbearable -- the on-going squabbles over the treaty for this and that, the obvious lack of leadership from the EU council not to mention currency wars with the Euro have fallen off the cliff, then there's still the issues regarding mounting debts with Italy, Greece and others-- the EU will be on knife edge soon with strikes and the possibility of other states following the UK's departure. I just think it's best we take a look at what's outside the EU -- you're not telling me that other trade deals can't be hammered out elsewhere which aren't politically loaded? It'll take a few years maybe decades to clean up the mess from the EU but in the end it'll be [hopefully] worth it.
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Which squabble over a treaty? What lack of leadership from th council? When did the Euro go off a cliff? 2013? Which states are going to depart next? Or is this the same source that said Hungary would do the UK a favour in the withdrawal agreement negotiations?

This is just a vague list of things that have been issues with the EU since Maastricht presented as of they're existential.

With Scottish elections coming up and the COVID depression I think there's much more chance of the UK breaking up before the EU.
 
This all sounds like a broken record - the same rhetorical bunkum digested and regurgitated adinfinitum.
The New Zealand Prime-Minister summed up the arguement recently when she pointed out that with a market of 500,000,000 "on their doorstep" - why would the [dis] United Kingdom make a decision to cast itself adrift, left to the winds of unregulated world trade?
 
Muttley said:
Thanks for making a sensible argument. I'll just address the points you made if I can.

1. Politics inside the EU

Basically the same as politics everywhere, politicians trying to gain advantage for their own states. It's their job and actually the fact that there are multiple hands on the steering wheel tends to make the course steadier than (for example) UK Government veering between the right and the left due to our two party system.

2. Currency wars with the Euro

I'm not sure what you mean here do you mean Euro v Sterling? Or the internal problems caused by rich nations and poor nations using the same currency?

3. Mounting debts with Italy, Greece and others

Only really a concern for those countries tied to the Euro. We were not, so it would not have affected us other than perhaps Sterling rising against the Euro

4. The EU will be on knife edge soon with strikes and the possibility of other states following the UK's departure.

The collapse of the EU has been "imminent" since before 2016, yet here we are. There will continue to be problems within the EU just as there are in the UK. Those problems will affect us just as much as non-members as it would have as members. I.e. perhaps significantly probably hardly at all.

5. You're not telling me that other trade deals can't be hammered out elsewhere which aren't politically loaded?

ALL trade deals are politically loaded. The USA aren't going to give us an amazingly beneficial trade deal out of the kindness of their hearts. They want what's in it for them.

Look my argument is not that the EU is some marvellous utopia that only the criminally insane would not want to be a part of. Indeed, I can understand wanting to leave the control of what seems like a cumbersome Government-by-committee organisation. What I cannot understand is the stupid headlong plummet towards leaving the Customs Union, the Single Market and giving up our Freedom of Movement. All of which could be part of a Norway type deal to keep us associated with but not a member of the EU. It is lunacy driven by a combination of Xenophobia and Political dogma.
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Muttley, I think you miss the point that most folks "probably" expected to remain part of the single market, even if though that would mean paying for that benefit. I certainly did not think we would be on the cliff edge of a no deal leave.

As for a sensible argument, I have given many over the last few years. It is pure nonsense that there are no benefits to leaving the political union of the EU. The benefits of leaving the single market are a little more difficult to quantify. I would like the idea of being able to negotiate trade deals independent of the EU, but I don't think we would be allowed to do that, and remain in the single market.

For clarity, I never considered the GFA when I cast my vote, nor that a lazy, feckless idiot would be in charge of our negotiations, had I known either of these I would probably have voted to remain.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
So you're either you were a very precocious supporter of John Smith
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I've seen this argument put forward a lot about Smith being the last great labour leader. It seems to be a way of the extremist right trying to prove they are balanced rather than extremist.

They argue that a man who was never in power, never fought an election campaign and was labour leader for less than a couple of years was great. The reality is the guy wasn't in long enough for the press to get their hooks into him like they have with every other labour leader. Those right wing extremists, like our honourable friend here, are being dishonest trying to paint themselves as balanced. They're the same people that pretend that David Milliband would have been better and the press would have been fair with him.


Laughing said:
I think you miss the point that most folks "probably" expected to remain part of the single market, even if though that would mean paying for that benefit. I certainly did not think we would be on the cliff edge of a no deal leave
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That's a common argument I'm hearing now, it's also something you were warned about 4 years ago. It was labelled as project fear by the press, the Tory government and Vote Leave. Yet still people won't accept they were hoodwinked.
 
BoroMart said:
I've seen this argument put forward a lot about Smith being the last great labour leader. It seems to be a way of the extremist right trying to prove they are balanced rather than extremist.

They argue that a man who was never in power, never fought an election campaign and was labour leader for less than a couple of years was great. The reality is the guy wasn't in long enough for the press to get their hooks into him like they have with every other labour leader. Those right wing extremists, like our honourable friend here, are being dishonest trying to paint themselves as balanced. They're the same people that pretend that David Milliband would have been better and the press would have been fair with him.



That's a common argument I'm hearing now, it's also something you were warned about 4 years ago. It was labelled as project fear by the press, the Tory government and Vote Leave. Yet still people won't accept they were hoodwinked.
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It's an argument I have used since day 1 - no revisions happening here BoroMart. And no I wasn't hoodwinked, 4 years ago it never crossed my mind that we would have Johnson as PM, I just couldn't envisage an electorate stupid enough to let that happen - how wrong can you be.

Immigration was never an issue for me, the politicization of the EU was why I wanted out. I had no issue with staying in the market or indeed freedom of movement.

The truth is both from May and now Johnson both have failed miserably with negotiations. I am not even sure what Johnson wants, does he want a deal or not, it is difficult to tell. If we leave with no deal it will be political suicide for him and his cabinet.

I also didn't expect to be in the economical position we now find ourselves in, and the transition period should have been extended, not that I think that would make any difference, Johnson is inept.
 
BoroMart said:
That's a common argument I'm hearing now, it's also something you were warned about 4 years ago. It was labelled as project fear by the press, the Tory government and Vote Leave. Yet still people won't accept they were hoodwinked.
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I think it's more a case of not admitting it rather than not accepting it. Nobody likes admitting they were duped.

I'm also looking at Scotland or further afield.
 
Laughing said:
Immigration was never an issue for me, the politicization of the EU was why I wanted out. I had no issue with staying in the market or indeed freedom of movement.
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Describe the politicisation you have a particular problem with and then explain how it is improved by leaving the EU.
 
Adi_Dem said:
Describe the politicisation you have a particular problem with and then explain how it is improved by leaving the EU.
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We have done this on the old site Adi, and you didn't agree with me, but briefly again:

Common security and defence policy - whilst as it stands it doesn't concern me that much, but it has changed over time and will continue to change, I don't want another super power on the planet.

European Commission - my MEP cannot propose legislation, they can, of course veto legislation, but cannot propose it, that is shocking state of affairs for a democracy.

European Commission - I don't like the way it is elected and with respect to the point above we do not know how the commission will be formed before casting votes in a European election.

I don't agree with the fiscal power the EU has over the Euro-Zone and the punitive actions it can take when a member state falls outside of the regulations for membership of the Euro-Zone

There are, of course other things I don't agree with, but if we were out of the EU political process we wouldn't have to concern ourselves with some of the machinations of the European Commission.
 
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