Who the f**** needs Europe. We have all we need here.

Laughing said:
As I have said elsewhere, had I considered the GFA I would probably have voted to remain, the break up of the union is more important to me than whether we are in or out of the EU.
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If we were staying in the Single Market the GFA wouldn't be an issue and it is unlikely a majority in Scotland would want independence.
 
Laughing said:
My key arguments are now it's OK, mostly, I am concerned about what it may become given the EU's aims of a united Europe, which BTW I would be fine with if it were a United Planet. I really fear for the world at the moment with 3 super powers, we don't need another.
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So your vote was driven by something that might happen, something over which we have a lot of influence and contrl and the vast majority of which we would have veto rights and a requirement that a decision not to exercise those veto rights be put to a referendum. I cannot see how that is anything other than democratically sound (assuming none of the fraud etc that went on in 2016 was repeated) and I still can't see (a) a good reason for voting to leave or (b) a single tangible benefit to leaving.
 
Adi_Dem said:
So your vote was driven by something that might happen, something over which we have a lot of influence and contrl and the vast majority of which we would have veto rights and a requirement that a decision not to exercise those veto rights be put to a referendum. I cannot see how that is anything other than democratically sound (assuming none of the fraud etc that went on in 2016 was repeated) and I still can't see (a) a good reason for voting to leave or (b) a single tangible benefit to leaving.
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Not quiet Adi, it was the EU's wish to form a political union, they stated it as their aim, I didn't want that. You are paraphrasing me, and not really giving the full context.

The tangible benefit is I don't have to be part of a political union I don't want to be part of, I thought that was obvious.

And no NyBoro, criticizing Junker is nothing like saying "but, corbyn abbot", don't be a d*ck if you want me to engage with you.
 
Lefty said:
If we were staying in the Single Market the GFA wouldn't be an issue and it is unlikely a majority in Scotland would want independence.
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That is very true Lefty, you would assume, but I don't underdtand the politics exactly for the GFA other than no hard border.
 
Laughing said:
Not quiet Adi, it was the EU's wish to form a political union, they stated it as their aim, I didn't want that. You are paraphrasing me, and not really giving the full context.

The tangible benefit is I don't have to be part of a political union I don't want to be part of, I thought that was obvious.

And no NyBoro, criticizing Junker is nothing like saying "but, corbyn abbot", don't be a d*ck if you want me to engage with you.
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Equating Junker to the whole EU is exactly like equating them to the whole Labour party.
 
Laughing said:
Not quiet Adi, it was the EU's wish to form a political union, they stated it as their aim, I didn't want that. You are paraphrasing me, and not really giving the full context.

The tangible benefit is I don't have to be part of a political union I don't want to be part of, I thought that was obvious.
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But it isn't a tangible benefit because it is based on something that might happen (but is unlikely) and in respect of which we have some strong safeguards in place. That isn't a tangible benefit, it's a vote to avoid something in the future that is extremely unlikely to happen and which you would have a vote in respect of before it could.
 
No it isn't Adi, that is the stated aim of the EU. A club we belonged to wanted to move in a direction I didn't want to go in. It wasn't unlikely it was very likely, but I take your point, I just don't agree with your statement that it wouldn't happen and we had sufficient safegaurds in place.

NYBoro I made no such comparison between Junker and the EU, I stated an opinion about the man, and you would be hard pressed to argue against it.
 
Laughing said:
No it isn't Adi, that is the stated aim of the EU. A club we belonged to wanted to move in a direction I didn't want to go in. It wasn't unlikely it was very likely, but I take your point, I just don't agree with your statement that it wouldn't happen and we had sufficient safegaurds in place.

NYBoro I made no such comparison between Junker and the EU, I stated an opinion about the man, and you would be hard pressed to argue against it.
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In that case, I apologise unreservedly. I read it that you cast your vote that way because of Junker.
 
Ah NY no, it was a passing remark, I didn't like him representing me but it wasn't a driving force. I just wish the whole sorry affair had never been decided by referendum, or at least there was an overwhelming majority one way or the other.

The whole thing has divided the country and given Johnson an 80 seat majority.
 
Laughing said:
Ah NY no, it was a passing remark, I didn't like him representing me but it wasn't a driving force. I just wish the whole sorry affair had never been decided by referendum, or at least there was an overwhelming majority one way or the other.

The whole thing has divided the country and given Johnson an 80 seat majority.
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At least you got a vote. I was disenfranchised once I'd been here for 15 years, despite always intending to return. Next time, though.......
 
Yeah but the vote hasn't helped much. I do wonder sometimes if lots of people were just voting for change, any change, just change. I would hope not, but you do see that phenomona in by-elections.
 
Laughing said:
I do wonder sometimes if lots of people were just voting for change, any change, just change.
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I think you're absolutely right on that, but people voted for a host of reasons, almost none of which will be positively affected by us leaving the EU with "no deal"

1. Sick of years of austerity
2. Sick of "the establishment"
3. Sick of not being listened to / disenfranchised
4. Racism and Xenophobia (not saying that all leave voters are Xenophobes or Racist but Xs and Rs didn't vote to remain.)
5. Wanting to give the money to the NHS
6. Belief in a better future for the UK outside the EU
7. European Army
8. Turkey joining the EU
9. United States of Europe

That's off the top of my head.
 
Muttley said:
I think you're absolutely right on that, but people voted for a host of reasons, almost none of which will be positively affected by us leaving the EU with "no deal"

1. Sick of years of austerity
2. Sick of "the establishment"
3. Sick of not being listened to / disenfranchised
4. Racism and Xenophobia (not saying that all leave voters are Xenophobes or Racist but Xs and Rs didn't vote to remain.)
5. Wanting to give the money to the NHS
6. Belief in a better future for the UK outside the EU
7. European Army
8. Turkey joining the EU
9. United States of Europe

That's off the top of my head.
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The main one was immigration.

See the word cloud compiled from responses when asked at the time for the reasons people voted leave.

43EF7576-1E5E-481E-A64C-4A15D23EABA8.jpeg
 
Laughing said:
he vast majority of people are so entrenched in their viewpoint that debate becomes meaningless, the EU are corrupt - So are the Tories, THe European Commission are un-democratic, so is our parliament and so on.
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All systems of governance have issues as you describe. But claiming that they are all the same is a fallacy. EU corruption is not the same as the Tory corruption we are seeing, not even close. The EU system has far more representative and accountability than our parliamentary system.
 
BoroMart said:
What do you have to back that up? Or is it just an interpretation based on the PR that was pushed by the press on behalf of the ERG?
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Bully is probably slightly the wrong word, but they certainly imposed conditions on Greece. The conditions were probably largely justified, but never actually viable nor practical. The EU has sort of learnt from this with the Covid measures which are genuinely generous, collaborative and supportive and transcends national self interest.
 
Laughing said:
It was the EU and the Tories or just the Tories.
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What you miss is that EU laws create boundaries that stop extremist governments like the Tories. The reason we have a right wing government in support of brexit for 5 years, by your own admission lying to the public and untrustworhty, is that they wanted to dismantle the NHS, dismantle our workers rights, and human rights and sell us off for profit, remove our safety nets, snoop on our data and a whole host of other nefarious and extremist aims. They couldn't do that while within the EU, because the EU ensured certain basic rights for all citizens.

So it was a case of EU + Tory with limited ability to harm OR Tories unfettered and unaccountable. You chose the latter and need to own that.
 
BoroMart said:
All systems of governance have issues as you describe. But claiming that they are all the same is a fallacy. EU corruption is not the same as the Tory corruption we are seeing, not even close. The EU system has far more representative and accountability than our parliamentary system.
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I wasn't suggesting equivalence, others made that point, not me. I was pointing out that one being undemocratic doesn't justify sticking with another. No equivalence from me.

Lefty you are probably right bully is a strong, G choice of words. Greece could have just left the EuroZone but they were desperate for the bailout so would have agreed to just about anything.

BoroMart I don't fall for anything being peddled, you could just accept that I had reasons that were and still are important to me, for voting to leave the EU. You may not agree with me, but to insult my intelligence because I have a different viewpoint to you seems a bit odd.
 
BoroMart said:
What you miss is that EU laws create boundaries that stop extremist governments like the Tories. The reason we have a right wing government in support of brexit for 5 years, by your own admission lying to the public and untrustworhty, is that they wanted to dismantle the NHS, dismantle our workers rights, and human rights and sell us off for profit, remove our safety nets, snoop on our data and a whole host of other nefarious and extremist aims. They couldn't do that while within the EU, because the EU ensured certain basic rights for all citizens.

So it was a case of EU + Tory with limited ability to harm OR Tories unfettered and unaccountable. You chose the latter and need to own that.
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Hmm, not sure how much of that is true, but for arguments sake let's look at them.

Dismantle the NHS - not really any of the EU's business
Lying to the public - not any of the EU's business
Dismantle workers rights - some evidence please?
Dismantle our human rights - some evidence please?
Snoop on our data, well actually break GDPR regulations. They could have done that and stayed in the EU providing the data didn't pass outside of the UK. Contravening GDPR is fairly common across IT infrastructure right across Europe, not saying it is right, but it is a fact.

The only ones that have any merit are human rights and workers rights which the EU gave a court of arbitration for. However, if the Tory tw@ts actually go as far as trampling over our workers rights they don't get voted in again. Relying on the EU for our basic rights is not much of an argument, it would mean we had an electorate that are actively voting for the removal of these rights. A democracy doesn't require an overlord.
 
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