What has happened to Adi Dem?

Adi I am not saying Southgate was good and Robson was bad. I am saying Robson was a worse manager than Southgate.

Robson net spend in his last season was just over 12 million. Southgate's first season in charge his net spend was 9 million. In that period sky funding almost doubles from 600 million to 1.1 billion, making Southgate's net spend around 6 million or half in real terms what Robson spent and that was a season in which Robson struggled and had to be bailed out after spending twice as much as Southgate. Take away the money and Robson would have been a disaster.
 
Southgate has grown into a decent manager at international level and is a better tactician than Robson. I still think it's questionable whether Southgate would ever be able to achieve day in day out at club level handling the big egos. IMHO Steve Mac was better than both Southgate and Robson, would loved to have seen Venables take thje job in 2001 though!
 
I recall that Venebles was the one that suggested Southgate to Gibson, I am not using that as an argument just as an aside
 
Laughing said:
I recall that Venebles was the one that suggested Southgate to Gibson, I am not using that as an argument just as an aside
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Interesting, I never knew that! I always half thought Gibson appointed Southgate because the LMA and FA said he couldn't;)
 
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Is the crux of this manager v coach? Robson was a poor coach I think. I'd also argue he recognised this himself a bit which is why he had experience in his backroom staff and brought Venables in. He signed some incredible players though which we wouldn't have done without him. His judgement on players was very good in the main. Everyone talks about the big names, but there's a fair few astute signings in amongst them too.

Southgate was a better coach but the players we brought in under him, bar a few were pretty poor. I suppose the debate will rumble on over how much say he had in those transfers but he surely has to take some responsibility. He released some key players too which arguably had just as big an impact on our downturn in fortune. Rochemback, Boateng, Cattermole, Morrison, Schwarzer.
 
I really enjoyed Robson 's time and he absolutely signed some gems and put us on a path to our first trophy. I wouldn't necessarily argue otherwise although there may have been other ways to achieve the same goal.

I concede all that.
 
Pog said:
In what measurable way did Pulis leave us in a much worse state than when he found the club?

He left us in a higher league position, over £30m in profit from transfer dealings and with a lower wage bill.

He didn’t oversee the transfer policy, just as Karanka and Woodgate didn’t. That’s not how the club works, with you being such an in the know you should know that.

The foundations he inherited were questionable at best. Couldn’t shift the likes of Friend, Shotton, Downing, Clayton, Gestede, Braithwaite who were contributing little and taking a combined around £250,000 a week out of the wage budget.

Thankfully we now have a manager who can build a squad without the legacy of overpaid dross and mercenaries that Gibson and the recruitment team acquired.
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I knew your Pulis alert would have gone off at that post. On the one hand you say he wasn’t responsible for overseeing transfers (thereby absolving him of blame for the utter dross he signed which you appear to blame Gibson for) and yet on the other give him credit for his transfer profit and wage bill lowering (which he achieved by someone paying a huge sum for one player and by flogging the best striker at the club before spaffing the proceeds). Which is it because you can’t have it both ways?
 
Laughing said:
Adi I am not saying Southgate was good and Robson was bad. I am saying Robson was a worse manager than Southgate.

Robson net spend in his last season was just over 12 million. Southgate's first season in charge his net spend was 9 million. In that period sky funding almost doubles from 600 million to 1.1 billion, making Southgate's net spend around 6 million or half in real terms what Robson spent and that was a season in which Robson struggled and had to be bailed out after spending twice as much as Southgate. Take away the money and Robson would have been a disaster.
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No, you said Robson was awful and have failed to back that up. You excused Southgate despite his record being considerably poorer and his achievements fewer. Now you say but for the money he would have been a disaster, which is a nonsensical argument that can pretty much be universally applied and which is largely irrelevant anyway. In terms of his time at Middlesbrough there is nothing to support a view that he was awful or that his reign was a disaster. He left the club in a far far healthier position than when he found it. Southgate however did the opposite.
 
Adi_Dem said:
No, you said Robson was awful and have failed to back that up. You excused Southgate despite his record being considerably poorer and his achievements fewer. Now you say but for the money he would have been a disaster, which is a nonsensical argument that can pretty much be universally applied and which is largely irrelevant anyway. In terms of his time at Middlesbrough there is nothing to support a view that he was awful or that his reign was a disaster. He left the club in a far far healthier position than when he found it. Southgate however did the opposite.
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I'll try once more Adi, no manager with a modicum of ability would have been relegated with the players we had under Robson, no decent manager in the world. He was awful as a manager. To take that team down should have been unthinkable yet somehow Robson conspired to do just that.

I get you don't agree most don't, for me he was hapless as a manager. You cannot just dismiss spending when comparing managers, it is integral to what they can achieve and Robson could have and should have achieved more. Starting an injured Ravanelli in an FA cup final says it all.
 
Pog said:
In what measurable way did Pulis leave us in a much worse state than when he found the club?

He left us in a higher league position, over £30m in profit from transfer dealings and with a lower wage bill.

He didn’t oversee the transfer policy, just as Karanka and Woodgate didn’t. That’s not how the club works, with you being such an in the know you should know that.

The foundations he inherited were questionable at best. Couldn’t shift the likes of Friend, Shotton, Downing, Clayton, Gestede, Braithwaite who were contributing little and taking a combined around £250,000 a week out of the wage budget.

Thankfully we now have a manager who can build a squad without the legacy of overpaid dross and mercenaries that Gibson and the recruitment team acquired.
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pulis found us outside the Play offs and left us outside the play offs.
He sold our 3 best players, leaving the squad much weaker as a result and did sell on 2 others in Forshaw and Christie for a combined £48m.
He spent £20m on 3 permanent signings. We've already lost £3m on one of the spuds Flint and would lose at least that if we were to sell Saville. We might get our money back on McNair.
The wage bill was reduced by £8m, but was still over £40m, a major wage bill and competitive advantage for him, yet he went backwards.
The money he spunked on besic, hugill, mikel, vlp and the other expensive loans was lunacy. He loaned hugill for a season spending half the fee received for our best striker.
He was part of double act with monk that has left us poorer and weaker.
They were both horrendous failures.
 
What is interesting on this thread is how we judge managers performance. If we like them we look at the positives, if we don't like them so much we pick the negatives. As Adi has rightly pointed out I pick his relegation season to damn Robson, others point to 3 Cup finals to support him. Same with pulis, I thought he was rubbish and agree with indeedio but he did have us in and around the play offs for most of his time here.
 
Nothing wrong with disagreeing, this board would be empty if not for different views. I would concede Robsons first couple of years looked very good and I had high hopes for him. That's all yer getting though.
 
Laughing said:
I would like to have found a net spend for the seasons Robson was in charge which would be useful.

There is a comprehensive breakdown of Robson's transfer dealings up to October 2000 (7 months before he left) at the link. I don't think he brought in any big signings after this time, so it is a good indication of his comings and goings and the monies recouped on not only his players, but those brought in by Lennie.

The link is to a Bryan Robson interview on 13 October 2000 at Hurworth just a few weeks before Terry Venables arrived.

The section on transfer values forms part of a secondary piece entitled "Diamond or Fake?" It asks the same question that Adi and Laughing have been debating most civilly these past 24 hours. It's really refreshing to read a lively debate without dummies being spat out.

http://www.shaunkeogh.co.uk/admin_area/videos/pdfs/30ModulePDF2.pdf
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