What has happened to Adi Dem?

You are comparing spending in 2006 with spending during Robson time? You are not being very even handed.
 
Adi_Dem said:
And Lamb/Gibson contradict him. I had a lot of access to information in the club at that time and know that it isn’t true.
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If you say so Adi I have no way of knowing what's true, you only know what you are being told. If it didn't come from Gibson you are getting your information 2nd, 3rd hand. I have no way of knowing how reliable that is.
 
Laughing said:
You are comparing spending in 2006 with spending during Robson time? You are not being very even handed.
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No, I’m pointing out the glaring contradictions in your stated position. Southgate gets the benefit of the doubt because he was inexperienced and had a difficult job whereas Robson was a disaster and an awful manager despite two promotions, three Cup Finals and a few decent PL finishes. It doesn’t reconcile.
 
Laughing said:
If you say so Adi I have no way of knowing what's true, you only know what you are being told. If it didn't come from Gibson you are getting your information 2nd, 3rd hand. I have no way of knowing how reliable that is.
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That’s not an accurate statement.
 
Adi_Dem said:
That’s not an accurate statement.
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Again I have no way of knowing Adi.

Just looked up spending of Southgate v Robson, in real terms Robson had more to spend than Southgate but not by as much as I thought, but still substantially more given the increases in sky money over the period.

My argument isn't that Southgate was good it is that Robson was bad, once he was fired and went to West brom with more realistic funds he was terrible, in fact he was terrible in every subsequent managerial post.
 
Laughing said:
Again I have no way of knowing Adi.

Just looked up spending of Southgate v Robson, in real terms Robson had more to spend than Southgate but not by as much as I thought, but still substantially more given the increases in sky money over the period.

My argument isn't that Southgate was good it is that Robson was bad, once he was fired and went to West brom with more realistic funds he was terrible, in fact he was terrible in every subsequent managerial post.
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And as I said, the two positions contradict each other.
 
They don't Adi, Robson had more to spend and got relegated with twice the squad Southgate was relegated with.
 
Abel Tasman said:
Think you are referring to Luke Young but he was sold in close season to Villa.
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He had only been with us one season too. He was sold for the very same reason Bamford was, someone offered more money than we paid!!! See Cyrus Christie too, sold after a few months for a small profit (mind, he was an awful defender)
 
Laughing said:
They don't Adi, Robson had more to spend and got relegated with twice the squad Southgate was relegated with.
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They definitely do. So many holes in that argument. Firstly, it was Southgate that was responsible for putting the squad together and his decisions were frankly dreadful. Secondly, it reduces the comparison to a single season (in which Robsons till reached two Cup Finals and won enough points to stay up on merit) which is fundamentally flawed.

coluka said:
He had only been with us one season too. He was sold for the very same reason Bamford was, someone offered more money than we paid!!! See Cyrus Christie too, sold after a few months for a small profit (mind, he was an awful defender)
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That's not the reason Bamford was sold.
 
Adi_Dem said:
I don't think it's all that binary with Robson. I think you have to take into account the starting point, the value of the squad he took over, its standing and then of course that the players you are talking about simply wouldn't have joined had he not been in charge. Looking at spend in isolation doesn't work, you have to add context and I think Robson winning two promotions, getting to three Cup Finals and attracting the players he did has to mean he was a huge success. He left the club in a much, much better place than when he found it.

As an example towards the other end of the scale, you'd have to say Monk and Pulis were much, much worse because they inherited a much 'bigger' club with a much better foundation to work from and spent oodles of cash on absolute dross. So whilst Pulis might have been hovering around the play offs, he presided over a disastrous transfer policy, played the most awful brand of football, turned fans off and ultimately failed miserably, leaving the club in a much worse state than that in which he found it.
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Agree with that.

Monk and Pulis were disasters from start to finish. How Pulis was given another season after the sh*t show in the Play offs was just incredible. It was obvious he was out of his depth and didn't know how to get the team balance correct - even after having a shed load of money available - which he blasted up the wall.

Having Warnock now is just highlighting how ridiculous Gibson's last few managerial decisions have been. Monk, Pulis & Woodgate were car crash appointments. Good riddance to all 3 of them.
 
Marvanelli said:
Agree with that.

Monk and Pulis were disasters from start to finish. How Pulis was given another season after the sh*t show in the Play offs was just incredible. It was obvious he was out of his depth and didn't know how to get the team balance correct - even after having a shed load of money available - which he blasted up the wall.

Having Warnock now is just highlighting how ridiculous Gibson's last few managerial decisions have been. Monk, Pulis & Woodgate were car crash appointments. Good riddance to all 3 of them.
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I don't see why Monk and Pulis get such a hard time and Southgate gets a free pass, is it because he's a more likeable fella?! All three were poor appointments as it turned out, but many could see why we appointed Monk & Pulis at the time (even Strachan). Southgate was a surprise to many...even Southgate iirc!
 
Southgate isn't getting a free ride from me. I am not claiming he was a good manager too inexperienced to overcome the hurdles out in front of him. As I recall at the time he was lambasted during the relegation season also.

My point is simply Robson was worse, I think Adi is coming round now too
 
Otto42 said:
I don't see why Monk and Pulis get such a hard time and Southgate gets a free pass, is it because he's a more likeable fella?! All three were poor appointments as it turned out, but many could see why we appointed Monk & Pulis at the time (even Strachan). Southgate was a surprise to many...even Southgate iirc!
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I don't think Southgate does a get a free pass. His appointment was similar to Woodgate's - an absolute head shaker.
But the club did spend £56m in his first two seasons and nett spent over £31m. That is fact.
He may not have wanted all the transfer activity, but he did have some good players and a very big budget.
There also were very few complaints on that day in early May at the end of the second season when we walked out after beating Man City 8-1.
The wheels well and truly came off that summer with bizarre activity and a clear signal of reducing the wage budget. Southgate handled it very badly and the relegation was feeble. He simply can not and should not be completely detached from that.
Whoever thought selling Luke Young and buying that utter stiff Hoyte should never escape criticism. I know for a fact Southgate wanted Aliadiere too. I don't accept he had no involvement in transfers.

Robson's first five years were exciting, transformational and catalytic.
Promotion; Consolidation; Cup Finals Relegation; Cup Final Promotion; Our highest league finish for 25 years.
He stayed too long and should have left in 1999. Gibson and him were undoubtedly and perhaps understandably far too close.
I would agree he was magnificently supported. I also agree he has never been the brain of Britain, nor been a football manager heavyweight, but no Robson, no stage for McLaren to take us further. I am still delighted he came, stayed and gave us such great memories.

I also loved the McLaren era. The Club was in a different strata - only re-approached under Karanka.
Since then it has been amateur hour on repeat.
Thank God Gibson finally reached out to Warnock.
 
Otto42 said:
I don't see why Monk and Pulis get such a hard time and Southgate gets a free pass, is it because he's a more likeable fella?! All three were poor appointments as it turned out, but many could see why we appointed Monk & Pulis at the time (even Strachan). Southgate was a surprise to many...even Southgate iirc!
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I never mentioned Southgate? He certainly doesn't get a free pass.

He should have been sacked the minute the full time whistle blew when we lost away to Hull 2-1.
 
Laughing said:
My point is simply Robson was worse, I think Adi is coming round now too
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You tinker, baiting the hook. But I can't resist: I am not coming around at all.

You aren't being consistent in your opinion of Southgate versus Robson and you haven't been able to justify the comment that Robson was an "awful manager". He wasn't. Neither was he a great manager. I find it difficult not to conclude though that in our history he should go down as one of the greats.

Whether you like it or not he was a key catalyst in the 'Riverside Revolution', which simply would not have worked without him even with Gibson's millions. He was the reason we got to see the players we did during that period. He identified and recruited those players.

He won two promotions, got to three cup finals, and finished 12th in 95/96, 9th in 98/99, 12th in 99/00 and got enough points to finish 14th in 96/97 incidentally. His final season was a disaster personally given the Venables decision but other than that it is not a shabby record and certainly not evidence that he was an 'awful' manager especially in the context of your much more excusatory review of Southgate's tenure:

"Southgate was inexperienced and was asked to oversea a squad rebuild with lots of decisions made on his behalf. Most experienced managers would have struggled. He is doing well with England which is probably a better mark of his ability. "
 
Laughing said:
Southgate isn't getting a free ride from me. I am not claiming he was a good manager too inexperienced to overcome the hurdles out in front of him. As I recall at the time he was lambasted during the relegation season also.

My point is simply Robson was worse, I think Adi is coming round now too
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I take your point re Robson, classic example of top players not necessarily making good managers. I do think appointing Robson was a good move and appointing Southgate wasn't though!
 
Employing Robson was a good decision by Gibson.

There's no chance he was an awful manage for us. 3 Cup finals, 2 promotions, signing superstars - all whilst going into a new stadium.

Southgate on the other hand was a terrible managerial appointment.
 
Adi_Dem said:
As an example towards the other end of the scale, you'd have to say Monk and Pulis were much, much worse because they inherited a much 'bigger' club with a much better foundation to work from and spent oodles of cash on absolute dross. So whilst Pulis might have been hovering around the play offs, he presided over a disastrous transfer policy, played the most awful brand of football, turned fans off and ultimately failed miserably, leaving the club in a much worse state than that in which he found it.
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In what measurable way did Pulis leave us in a much worse state than when he found the club?

He left us in a higher league position, over £30m in profit from transfer dealings and with a lower wage bill.

He didn’t oversee the transfer policy, just as Karanka and Woodgate didn’t. That’s not how the club works, with you being such an in the know you should know that.

The foundations he inherited were questionable at best. Couldn’t shift the likes of Friend, Shotton, Downing, Clayton, Gestede, Braithwaite who were contributing little and taking a combined around £250,000 a week out of the wage budget.

Thankfully we now have a manager who can build a squad without the legacy of overpaid dross and mercenaries that Gibson and the recruitment team acquired.
 
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