We aren’t far away from getting this right

InglebyUTB said:
I just don’t see any reason to stick with him other than blind faith or loyalty. He’s not addressed a single issue from last season, literally nothing has improved, we’re only slightly better off in the table because it’s a worse league than last season.

He hasn’t changed his approach until this point, why on earth would he change now? He had his say on the fans after West Brom, he can’t comprehend why people aren’t happy with him or his team this season.
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When Wilder was here it got to the point where we were too predictable. What had worked well for a while when he first came had been worked out by opposition managers and it stopped working. He wouldn't change and just expected his magical formula to work again. He's no longer playing that system at Sheff Utd. He's adapted. If someone as arrogant as Wilder can do it then I don't know why Carrick can't.

Football isn't played by one team. Anyone that has played football manager even knows that a tactic that works only works for so long. If you don't expect other managers to react to what you are doing then it is very naive. It's true in any sport. You have to be constantly evolving and we don't seem to be. We're trying to play the way we played in our first season but we don't have Akpom doing the job of two players so we're not as good at it and other teams know all our weaknesses because we haven't changed anything to protect them.
 
He’s obviously stubborn and won’t change his ways. Playing out from the back with people whom have zero composure is madness, but he still persists with it.
 
The Card Cheat said:
I wonder if having Iheanacho will help to stop us conceding so many goals from us losing the ball in our own half?
Someone with his physicality and ability to play with his back to goal, might mean we can at least be more varied in how we distribute the ball from defensive positions and go direct more often.
Last season the points gained when he had a similar style of player in Coburn up front were remarkable, compared to when he didn’t start.
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He might be able to but only if we have the desire tactically to get the ball up to him fast enough, the way we play though with this incessant slow build up our opponents will crowd Ian out.
Instead of always looking to play the ball back under most circumstances we need to be more forward looking
 
If, and it’s a big if now, we do get promoted via the playoffs, we need to get rid of Carrick anyway as we will not win many games at all in the premier league playing to his style, we saw that against Chelsea away, we will get picked off left right and centre playing this passing around at the back game.
Look at how pathetic Southampton have been this season and they have had parachute payments recently to fund their team and they play like us and get battered every week
 
Nero said:
It is the only model for the club without doubt. I much prefer having a structure than allowing a Manager to pick who he wants like Strachan years ago.

Recruitment has been mainly good. Some haven’t worked out like Engel and Silvera, but others like Rogers and ELL have been an amazing success.

We have seen some of the best attacking football in my years following Boro. We’ve also seen some of the worst defensive performances ever.

I really like Carrick as a bloke. He’s calm, measured and backs the players. What is frustrating is how we can go from defensively brilliant against West Brom, to a shambles against Preston and Sunderland. The West Brom game should have been a catalyst to really securing that 5th spot. Instead, stupid mistakes (and some misfortune) has cost us.

Why can’t we adopt an approach where without the ball we go 4-4-2, keep it tight and don’t allow huge spaces between defenders and midfield. Then when we have the ball look to be expansive. The two are compatible. We’ve done it several times.

This season has been the most frustrating I’ve had. Defeats that shouldn’t have been. Draws that should have been wins.

If play offs are not achieved and I think it won’t then Carrick has failed and needs to go. As much as I don’t want that to happen.
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I agree with the model and a correct way of playing but just don’t expect a fish to climb up a tree
 
Blamethrower said:
If, and it’s a big if now, we do get promoted via the playoffs, we need to get rid of Carrick anyway as we will not win many games at all in the premier league playing to his style, we saw that against Chelsea away, we will get picked off left right and centre playing this passing around at the back game.
Look at how pathetic Southampton have been this season and they have had parachute payments recently to fund their team and they play like us and get battered every week
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I agree he got his tactics completely wrong against Chelsea away, but on the flip side he got them spot on in the home leg against Chelsea and against Villa in the FA cup, when we were very unlucky not to come away with a draw.
I think it’s a bit of a myth that Carrick won’t ever change tactics. He changed them for both of those games I mentioned. He changed tactics for Leicester at home last year, he changed for a good part of last season when we went to 5 at the back, and we were successful in doing that.
Whether he is capable of getting us to the Premier League is debatable, but if he did I don’t think he’d stubbornly stick to one way of playing regardless of results.
 
B_G said:
I think MC is trying to.
The difference is, teams didn't know what we were going to do in 2022. 2 and a half seasons of trying to play the same way means every club we play against know what we are going to do so Hackney and Morris often don't have that space any more. If teams are well organised like Sunderland were in the second half against us, they will stop the passing lanes into CM which leads to our CBs and GK tapping it about waiting till an option becomes available.
The option is usually Hackney or Morris coming and getting it off them in a deep position as we refuse to go more direct.
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That’s exactly the reason why we need to change it up .
 
The Card Cheat said:
I agree he got his tactics completely wrong against Chelsea away, but on the flip side he got them spot on in the home leg against Chelsea and against Villa in the FA cup, when we were very unlucky not to come away with a draw.
I think it’s a bit of a myth that Carrick won’t ever change tactics. He changed them for both of those games I mentioned. He changed tactics for Leicester at home last year, he changed for a good part of last season when we went to 5 at the back, and we were successful in doing that.
Whether he is capable of getting us to the Premier League is debatable, but if he did I don’t think he’d stubbornly stick to one way of playing regardless of results.
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We were definitely unlucky against Villa I will give you that, as for Chelsea at home they missed 3 sitters of which 2 of those we gifted to them on the edge of our own box, we played well but on any other day they put those chances away, Cole Palmer definitely had an off day.
He changed to a back 3 home and away v Leicester last season and got results, he only played a back 3/5 in a small handful of other games before reverting back to his preferred
4-2-3-1.
He is too ridged in his tactics.
And doesn’t have the players to implement them.
 
When 4231 works it is a sight to behold. But when it doesn't we are totally exposed on the counter and even Man City are now seeing the downside of this tactic as they are unable to control games like they used to.
 
The opposition eventually wise up to these type of tactics and good managers move with the times, bad ones get left behind
 
The Card Cheat said:
I wonder if having Iheanacho will help to stop us conceding so many goals from us losing the ball in our own half?
Someone with his physicality and ability to play with his back to goal, might mean we can at least be more varied in how we distribute the ball from defensive positions and go direct more often.
Last season the points gained when he had a similar style of player in Coburn up front were remarkable, compared to when he didn’t start.
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That's the one thing we so desperately miss, id say even more than his goals, from chuba leaving, and the main reason the GK/defence especially are being exposed when playing out.

That 30/40 yard clip into chuba for him to hold the ball and play a pass off to beat the press. When we try that now, the pass has to be along the floor and perfect, as Azaz doesn't have the physical strength to hold the ball up and play the "10" role the way chuba did.
 
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Formations always have a lifespan.
When I first started watching football, every one played 4-4-2.

When Mourinho was doing well at Chelsea, a lot of teams replicated his 4-3-3

We seen a period of time when most clubs played 3 at the back.

Guardiola's 4-2-3-1 is played by most teams at the moment but maybe it's coming to the the end of it's time. Liverpool play the same shape but a different style. Less priority on possession and more priority on tempo and more direct.
 
B_G said:
Formations always have a lifespan.
When I first started watching football, every one played 4-4-2.

When Mourinho was doing well at Chelsea, a lot of teams replicated his 4-3-3

We seen a period of time when most clubs played 3 at the back.

Guardiola's 4-2-3-1 is played by most teams at the moment but maybe it's coming to the the end of it's time. Liverpool play the same shape but a different style. Less priority on possession and more priority on tempo and more direct.
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The probably with most teams playing Guardiola's 4-2-3-1 is they don't have the players and/or ability to play Guardiola's 4-2-3-1. Seeing kids teams, non-league teams, League 2 and even Championship teams trying to play that style, almost just for the sake of it, is just stupid at times.

Showing my age by calling for a a return to 4-4-2...but a return to 4-4-2 or other "old fashioned" formations, could be interesting for some clubs.

For us, I'd be quite happy to stick with 4-2-3-1 in a way. But we would benefit from more flexibility in that formation. How you go about that, I'm not sure, but almost becoming 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 when defending and expecting at least 2 of your forward 3 to track back could be something.

(there has to be something in FM25 being cancelled and me talking tactics on the same day! [laughing smiley if this board wasn't running on 1990s software]
 
PensionerCorner said:
The probably with most teams playing Guardiola's 4-2-3-1 is they don't have the players and/or ability to play Guardiola's 4-2-3-1. Seeing kids teams, non-league teams, League 2 and even Championship teams trying to play that style, almost just for the sake of it, is just stupid at times.
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I'm going to pick a bit of this which is really off topic but it's something that I am quite passionate about.
It doesn't matter what formation you play in kids football, but you should always look to play out from the back to develop ALL the kids in your team. Once you start encouraging kids to hoof a football long and just kick it anywhere, you have stopped prioritising development and started prioritising results.
Nothing worse than seeing 8 year old goalkeepers kicking the ball out of their hands over and over again hoping that eventually their striker toe pokes a couple in. Same can be said at 10 year old and 12 year old.
Get the ball on the floor and have ALL your team involved in trying to play proper football. Even if it means losing a few goals or games along the journey. All of the kids will learn more from this and become better footballers.

Back to professional football, I agree that trying to play a possession based system with players that are incapable is stupid. Professional football IS results driven.
The 4-2-3-1 can be played in different ways. Liverpool play it in a very different way to Man City. Boro play it in a very different way to Burnley.

Boro play it in a similar way to Man City. Possession based and try to break teams down. We commit our full backs forward and basically play 2 at the back once we have possession further up the pitch. We leave our no10, LW and RW high even out of possession.

I think managers are working out the weaknesses of this system. Vulnerable to a high press and quick transition.

Whereas Burnley play it almost as a 4-5-1. As soon as they lose possession their no10 drops into CM and gets behind the ball. Their wide players get behind the ball and support their fullbacks. They don't commit their fullbacks forward anywhere near as high as we do.
 
B_G said:
I'm going to pick a bit of this which is really off topic but it's something that I am quite passionate about.
It doesn't matter what formation you play in kids football, but you should always look to play out from the back to develop ALL the kids in your team. Once you start encouraging kids to hoof a football long and just kick it anywhere, you have stopped prioritising development and started prioritising results.
Nothing worse than seeing 8 year old goalkeepers kicking the ball out of their hands over and over again hoping that eventually their striker toe pokes a couple in. Same can be said at 10 year old and 12 year old.
Get the ball on the floor and have ALL your team involved in trying to play proper football. Even if it means losing a few goals or games along the journey. All of the kids will learn more from this and become better footballers.
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That's an interesting take. I hadn't really thought about it like that. I guess if you're doing it that way from day one, it makes sense.
 
PensionerCorner said:
The probably with most teams playing Guardiola's 4-2-3-1 is they don't have the players and/or ability to play Guardiola's 4-2-3-1. Seeing kids teams, non-league teams, League 2 and even Championship teams trying to play that style, almost just for the sake of it, is just stupid at times.

Showing my age by calling for a a return to 4-4-2...but a return to 4-4-2 or other "old fashioned" formations, could be interesting for some clubs.

For us, I'd be quite happy to stick with 4-2-3-1 in a way. But we would benefit from more flexibility in that formation. How you go about that, I'm not sure, but almost becoming 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 when defending and expecting at least 2 of your forward 3 to track back could be something.

(there has to be something in FM25 being cancelled and me talking tactics on the same day! [laughing smiley if this board wasn't running on 1990s software]
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I think it's great that youth football is playing that way. At that age it is about learning and improving and it's far better to learn how to be good on the ball and stay calm under pressure. The academies really focus on ball mastery because the ability to always be in control and confident with the ball at your feet is a great foundation. English players have always been behind other nations in technical ability and it is because kids in England were all taught to kick it long and get your head on it.
 
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