We aren’t far away from getting this right

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
Bear with me here.

This is the model that we’ve been crying out for. We have a recruitment team that isn’t perfect but is now consistently bringing relatively unknown players in and then selling them on for huge profit. That’s the model. I used to call it Ajax-lite and it is precisely the right approach, the only approach, for us as a club.

And Carrick has done an awful lot of things really well. We wanted an expansive, exciting brand of football that saw chances and goals and we have that. We play in the main attractive, effective attacking football. We have a clear identity on the pitch and I understand that’s cascaded down through the age groups. Another big tick in the box.

The problem though here is the one we’ve all identified and in respect of which Carrick appears to either have a blind spot or a stubborn refusal to address and it is halting our progress.

We have not recruited well at the back. We now have a collection of left backs, a bunch of crocked centre backs and only a handful of fit defenders. We rely on a clearly ageing Ayling too much and, to coin a recent phrase, the football has left him. VDB has been pretty poor and out of form for some time now and Fry and the dreadful Edmundson simply aren’t technically good enough or mobile enough to play this way.

On top of that, Carrick refuses to adapt. We look disjointed, positionally exposed and generally weak out of possession. We also seem to have a very weak mentality when the going gets tough. That squarely falls at the manager’s feet. If a world class holding midfielder and a world class centre back can’t set us up to be less exposed whilst still being the same attacking threat then we won’t ever progress. You can only compromise defending to an extent in favour of attacking football. There has to be balance and we don’t have it.

So the real question for me, having thought about it and reflected on not just last night but the reason that this season see us scrapping for a 6th place finish, is whether I believe Carrick can take us forward from here. The evidence is that he either can’t or won’t. So we will keep seeing this pattern. A great run of form like we had in November with goals and wins followed by kamikaze defending and poor runs of form because we simply cannot win or even play ugly.

He should see the season out and at that point we should look for a fresh manager to build on what are many many successes since Carrick joined.
 
Or another view, we are championship cloggers now, and it’ll take time to turn the model into success

Brentford used this model and found themselves in around the playoffs for years before it clicked correctly. I believe we are in the middle of that stage

We haven’t recruited well in defence like you say. I don’t think Carrick has the option to shore it up like he has previous seasons

We’ve made wholesale changes to personal again, when you make that many changes each window things will take time to to click, occasionally you might get lucky and hit the ground running.

There were some positive signs last night until Sunderland worked us out
 
Or another view, we are championship cloggers now, and it’ll take time to turn the model into success

Brentford used this model and found themselves in around the playoffs for years before it clicked correctly. I believe we are in the middle of that stage

We haven’t recruited well in defence like you say. I don’t think Carrick has the option to shore it up like he has previous seasons

We’ve made wholesale changes to personal again, when you make that many changes each window things will take time to to click, occasionally you might get lucky and hit the ground running.

There were some positive signs last night until Sunderland worked us out

Maybe so yeah. You can see it’s a work in progress but why we didn’t prioritise a centre back this window I don’t really know. Maybe we did and there were no players to be had that would fit. But it’s wider than just personnel, it’s the coaching as well I think. There are plenty of attacking teams that aren’t as positionally bad as we are out of possession.
 
There is no point in changing manager/coach at this point. We see how the new recruitment wave gels and assess the season at the end.

Last night hurt but Sunderland were able to field pretty much a first choice 11. We were without first and second choice striker, first choice keeper, etc etc. Yet they beat us with a huge deflection and an OG.

That's not to say we don't have problems. Plainly we do but I think we need to just see how things pan out at this stage.
 
There is no point in changing manager/coach at this point. We see how the new recruitment wave gels and assess the season at the end.

Last night hurt but Sunderland were able to field pretty much a first choice 11. We were without first and second choice striker, first choice keeper, etc etc. Yet they beat us with a huge deflection and an OG.

That's not to say we don't have problems. Plainly we do but I think we need to just see how things pan out at this stage.
I think that’s where I am now. Like you say it’s probably pointless now to try and change things. Very difficult for anyone to come in and make a material difference.
 
Maybe so yeah. You can see it’s a work in progress but why we didn’t prioritise a centre back this window I don’t really know. Maybe we did and there were no players to be had that would fit. But it’s wider than just personnel, it’s the coaching as well I think. There are plenty of attacking teams that aren’t as positionally bad as we are out of possession.
Honestly the defensive stuff is frustrating this season. Each mistake irks even more. I would like Carrick to give the cb more freedom to decide what the best course of action rather than having Edmundson play the ball out and give the fans 5 heart attacks a game

It’s baffling that we bring all these attacking players in when we have biggest deficiencies at the back, particularly right back

If we don’t make the playoffs I’ll be happy to change the manager
 
Fry is more than capable at this level. RVB is also more than capable. Imagine having a Nigel Pearson figure barking orders at them? That is what we miss, a shouting bully.

Also the way we play leaves the defence exposed after one wayward pass.

In the last 2 seasons we’ve put a run together of around 10 games that lifts us up the table. We are capable of doing that, we just need to stop the individual mistakes which have blighted this season more than any other I can remember in my 40 seasons watching them. Its been embarrassing at times. Probably dropped 15 points.
 
This is where I’m at too. I just can’t see Carrick fixing the obvious problems when they have been ignored for this long.

That being said, I think Scott takes some blame for that for not addressing some of the issues in the transfer window(s). Those problems being CBs who can’t play out from the back and the lack of depth/options in midfield.
 
The answer when trying to break teams down is not to push both centre backs within 15 yards of the opposition box and every other player ahead of them trying to take balls squeezed through the middle with backs to goal or on the half turn.

We get sucked in further, when we lose the ball the lack of mobility and pace (and will/desire?) puts us in a terrible position. One point last night Isidor was 10 yards inside his own half 5 yards clear of our last defender.

At the other end of the pitch we have players being asked to perform roles they can’t do when playing out from the back.

He needs to change tactics, we must be the easiest team to plan against. Let us have the ball in our own penalty area or within ten yards of the oppositions, at some point we’ll mess it up and there’ll be chances.

The model is the correct one imo, but the manager can and should change if they are not delivering what the club expects. At the moment the manager clearly isn’t, the model doesn’t have to change if they do.
 
I wonder if having Iheanacho will help to stop us conceding so many goals from us losing the ball in our own half?
Someone with his physicality and ability to play with his back to goal, might mean we can at least be more varied in how we distribute the ball from defensive positions and go direct more often.
Last season the points gained when he had a similar style of player in Coburn up front were remarkable, compared to when he didn’t start.
 
Bear with me here.

This is the model that we’ve been crying out for. We have a recruitment team that isn’t perfect but is now consistently bringing relatively unknown players in and then selling them on for huge profit. That’s the model. I used to call it Ajax-lite and it is precisely the right approach, the only approach, for us as a club.

And Carrick has done an awful lot of things really well. We wanted an expansive, exciting brand of football that saw chances and goals and we have that. We play in the main attractive, effective attacking football. We have a clear identity on the pitch and I understand that’s cascaded down through the age groups. Another big tick in the box.

The problem though here is the one we’ve all identified and in respect of which Carrick appears to either have a blind spot or a stubborn refusal to address and it is halting our progress.

We have not recruited well at the back. We now have a collection of left backs, a bunch of crocked centre backs and only a handful of fit defenders. We rely on a clearly ageing Ayling too much and, to coin a recent phrase, the football has left him. VDB has been pretty poor and out of form for some time now and Fry and the dreadful Edmundson simply aren’t technically good enough or mobile enough to play this way.

On top of that, Carrick refuses to adapt. We look disjointed, positionally exposed and generally weak out of possession. We also seem to have a very weak mentality when the going gets tough. That squarely falls at the manager’s feet. If a world class holding midfielder and a world class centre back can’t set us up to be less exposed whilst still being the same attacking threat then we won’t ever progress. You can only compromise defending to an extent in favour of attacking football. There has to be balance and we don’t have it.

So the real question for me, having thought about it and reflected on not just last night but the reason that this season see us scrapping for a 6th place finish, is whether I believe Carrick can take us forward from here. The evidence is that he either can’t or won’t. So we will keep seeing this pattern. A great run of form like we had in November with goals and wins followed by kamikaze defending and poor runs of form because we simply cannot win or even play ugly.

He should see the season out and at that point we should look for a fresh manager to build on what are many many successes since Carrick joined.
Progress rarely happens in a straight line. Look at how appallingly Sunderland finished last season.

If we can tighten up at the back and end the seemingly endless succession of game / season defining bizarre moments of self destruction then the world is our lobster. 🦞

I reckon 55% of the boro team that started yesterday are capable of achieving automatic promotion next season.
 
Bear with me here.

This is the model that we’ve been crying out for. We have a recruitment team that isn’t perfect but is now consistently bringing relatively unknown players in and then selling them on for huge profit. That’s the model. I used to call it Ajax-lite and it is precisely the right approach, the only approach, for us as a club.

And Carrick has done an awful lot of things really well. We wanted an expansive, exciting brand of football that saw chances and goals and we have that. We play in the main attractive, effective attacking football. We have a clear identity on the pitch and I understand that’s cascaded down through the age groups. Another big tick in the box.

The problem though here is the one we’ve all identified and in respect of which Carrick appears to either have a blind spot or a stubborn refusal to address and it is halting our progress.

We have not recruited well at the back. We now have a collection of left backs, a bunch of crocked centre backs and only a handful of fit defenders. We rely on a clearly ageing Ayling too much and, to coin a recent phrase, the football has left him. VDB has been pretty poor and out of form for some time now and Fry and the dreadful Edmundson simply aren’t technically good enough or mobile enough to play this way.

On top of that, Carrick refuses to adapt. We look disjointed, positionally exposed and generally weak out of possession. We also seem to have a very weak mentality when the going gets tough. That squarely falls at the manager’s feet. If a world class holding midfielder and a world class centre back can’t set us up to be less exposed whilst still being the same attacking threat then we won’t ever progress. You can only compromise defending to an extent in favour of attacking football. There has to be balance and we don’t have it.

So the real question for me, having thought about it and reflected on not just last night but the reason that this season see us scrapping for a 6th place finish, is whether I believe Carrick can take us forward from here. The evidence is that he either can’t or won’t. So we will keep seeing this pattern. A great run of form like we had in November with goals and wins followed by kamikaze defending and poor runs of form because we simply cannot win or even play ugly.

He should see the season out and at that point we should look for a fresh manager to build on what are many many successes since Carrick joined.
I have a feeling if we are in the Championship next season, Carrick will walk away and look for a new challenge.
 
I want Carrick here for the long term. We are building towards something. No point in ripping up and starting again with new manager and who wants different players. Our squad isn’t good enough for top 2 by a long way. We are where I thought we would be, amongst 5-8 decent but inconsistent championship teams pushing hard for play offs. We’ve had a ridiculous run of injuries for 18 months or so and it takes it toll not fielding some kind of consistent side. We struggle to keep clean sheets which is obvious but we also need to be ruthless at the other end of the pitch. The amount of times when we’re in control of games but not taking good chances/opportunities needs to be sorted as you know the opposition will score. Also, for me, I think howson is a big miss. His experience, being in the right place to sniff out danger, ability to win a tackle and keep us ticking over can’t be underestimated. He’s still starter when fit for me. I’m still confident that there is plenty left in this season for us and going forward with Carrick in charge.
 
Agree with the OP. If he doesn’t take us up (I don’t even think we’ll finish in the play-offs now) then he should go. I just don’t see the point in sticking with him, for what reason? We aren’t seeing any improvement whatsoever, the fundamental issues with this team are exactly the same ones we had 12 months ago and there’s just been no progression. We still can’t defend, his game management is still poor, we still have a weak mentality.

The players we signed at the back are players he wanted. He was desperate for Giles, he just walked into the club and he’s here.

We keep getting told what’s great coach he is and yet other clubs just seem to come out of nowhere to get promotion, and it’s never us.
 
What were your expectations at the start of the season? Top 2? Top 6? Top 8?
Agree with the OP. If he doesn’t take us up (I don’t even think we’ll finish in the play-offs now) then he should go. I just don’t see the point in sticking with him, for what reason? We aren’t seeing any improvement whatsoever, the fundamental issues with this team are exactly the same ones we had 12 months ago and there’s just been no progression. We still can’t defend, his game management is still poor, we still have a weak mentality.

The players we signed at the back are players he wanted. He was desperate for Giles, he just walked into the club and he’s here.

We keep getting told what’s great coach he is and yet other clubs just seem to come out of nowhere to get promotion, and it’s never us.
 
This is where I’m at too. I just can’t see Carrick fixing the obvious problems when they have been ignored for this long.

That being said, I think Scott takes some blame for that for not addressing some of the issues in the transfer window(s). Those problems being CBs who can’t play out from the back and the lack of depth/options in midfield.
I think the same happened when we had Grant Leadbitter we held on a little too long because of his importance and influence to the team. Possibly similar to George Friend aswell.

Now we are seeing in with Jonny Howson and Luke Ayling.. this is exasperated with injuries to players in those same positions.

You can’t go 100% when you’re not 100%
 
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