Warnock out brigade - Sense of entitlement?

wilkos_perm said:
We massively dominated possession at times especially at the Riverside under Karanka, but he was quite happy to sit back and break in certain away games. I think it was certainly more of a strategic decision on a game by game basis. Recently it's just been a result of poor performances on and off the ball, excluding last night.
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Exactly this. Karanka's side went out to win everygame and often started on the front foot. Once we scored we usually won. Teams just couldnt break us down. We had a solid core in midfield and defence and creativity Fabbrini and later in Ramirez. With warnock we look fragile other than brief spells where we're on the front foot. Our shape, formation, game plan has all been naive and disorganised because we dont have any leaders. However, we do have quality with the new players that we havent had for years. QPR we were leading against 10 men at home and lost. I get last night was a relief and much improved performance but, it doesnt change that weve been incredibly poor for almost a year and sticking two up top was the last roll of the dice. Im not a fan of Warnock. He talks total nonsense, and has become tiresome. We could of tried something different in the summer but played safe and kept him. This seasons start has nothing to do with the new foreigners. We played the same pre season and those core problems overspilled into the real thing. Last night almost guarantees he'll stay for the duration and im resigned to him being here unless things really nose dive. But as with Pulis, just waiting for it to end
 
Ted_DN38416 said:
Exactly this. Karanka's side went out to win everygame and often started on the front foot. Once we scored we usually won. Teams just couldnt break us down. We had a solid core in midfield and defence and creativity Fabbrini and later in Ramirez. With warnock we look fragile other than brief spells where we're on the front foot. Our shape, formation, game plan has all been naive and disorganised because we dont have any leaders. However, we do have quality with the new players that we havent had for years. QPR we were leading against 10 men at home and lost. I get last night was a relief and much improved performance but, it doesnt change that weve been incredibly poor for almost a year and sticking two up top was the last roll of the dice. Im not a fan of Warnock. He talks total nonsense, and has become tiresome. We could of tried something different in the summer but played safe and kept him. This seasons start has nothing to do with the new foreigners. We played the same pre season and those core problems overspilled into the real thing. Last night almost guarantees he'll stay for the duration and im resigned to him being here unless things really nose dive. But as with Pulis, just waiting for it to end
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Crikey my memory must be fading. My recollection was that Aitor send his side out to not get beaten. I don't recall many games where we went for it from the kick off. Norwich away is the only one that springs to mind. That run in with so many desperate last gasp goals was painful. And that Brighton game.
Same in Prem, not sure he ever sent a side out to win a single game.
 
Ted_DN38416 said:
Exactly this. Karanka's side went out to win everygame and often started on the front foot. Once we scored we usually won. Teams just couldnt break us down. We had a solid core in midfield and defence and creativity Fabbrini and later in Ramirez. With warnock we look fragile other than brief spells where we're on the front foot. Our shape, formation, game plan has all been naive and disorganised because we dont have any leaders. However, we do have quality with the new players that we havent had for years. QPR we were leading against 10 men at home and lost. I get last night was a relief and much improved performance but, it doesnt change that weve been incredibly poor for almost a year and sticking two up top was the last roll of the dice. Im not a fan of Warnock. He talks total nonsense, and has become tiresome. We could of tried something different in the summer but played safe and kept him. This seasons start has nothing to do with the new foreigners. We played the same pre season and those core problems overspilled into the real thing. Last night almost guarantees he'll stay for the duration and im resigned to him being here unless things really nose dive. But as with Pulis, just waiting for it to end
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And once the other team scored first we usually lost.
 
BiggEggo said:
Crikey my memory must be fading. My recollection was that Aitor send his side out to not get beaten. I don't recall many games where we went for it from the kick off. Norwich away is the only one that springs to mind. That run in with so many desperate last gasp goals was painful. And that Brighton game.
Same in Prem, not sure he ever sent a side out to win a single game.
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I mean you set out to win every single game, that's what professional football is. There's just different ways of doing it.

Just because you're not slinging six up front from the first whistle like Man United this season doesn't mean you're not trying to win.

Karanka put out a team that beat Manchester United and Manchester City in the cups and was a crazy penalty shootout away from taking out Liverpool. That's not an accident, that's a tactic.

I think he's still got the highest win % in Middlesbrough history, so it worked. I hate this line that he never tried to win a match, it's as bad as the "cared more about goal difference than getting an equaliser" line.
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
I mean you set out to win every single game, that's what professional football is. There's just different ways of doing it.

Just because you're not slinging six up front from the first whistle like Man United this season doesn't mean you're not trying to win.

Karanka put out a team that beat Manchester United and Manchester City in the cups and was a crazy penalty shootout away from taking out Liverpool. That's not an accident, that's a tactic.

I think he's still got the highest win % in Middlesbrough history, so it worked. I hate this line that he never tried to win a match, it's as bad as the "cared more about goal difference than getting an equaliser"
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Let's just say he he was no Eddie Howe when it came to setting out to win any game.
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
I mean you set out to win every single game, that's what professional football is. There's just different ways of doing it.

Just because you're not slinging six up front from the first whistle like Man United this season doesn't mean you're not trying to win.

Karanka put out a team that beat Manchester United and Manchester City in the cups and was a crazy penalty shootout away from taking out Liverpool. That's not an accident, that's a tactic.

I think he's still got the highest win % in Middlesbrough history, so it worked. I hate this line that he never tried to win a match, it's as bad as the "cared more about goal difference than getting an equaliser" line.
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Which manager doesn’t set out to win?

Karanka has bombed at every other club he’s been at, whilst Warnock had success at this level with multiple clubs.
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
I mean you set out to win every single game, that's what professional football is. There's just different ways of doing it.

Just because you're not slinging six up front from the first whistle like Man United this season doesn't mean you're not trying to win.

Karanka put out a team that beat Manchester United and Manchester City in the cups and was a crazy penalty shootout away from taking out Liverpool. That's not an accident, that's a tactic.

I think he's still got the highest win % in Middlesbrough history, so it worked. I hate this line that he never tried to win a match, it's as bad as the "cared more about goal difference than getting an equaliser" line.
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Although Karanka’s side wasn’t guns ho like other teams you always felt we were in the game and a win was possible. He was given the time by SG to build his team up and it will leave us wondering and discussing on here for years what might have happened if we’d got him the final pieces of the jigsaw in that January transfer window.
 
Alzi said:
Karanka has bombed at every other club he’s been at, whilst Warnock had success at this level with multiple clubs.
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He's also had failures too, I think he's been sacked 5 times and either relegated or lined a club up for relegation another 5 times.
 
BoroMart said:
He's also had failures too, I think he's been sacked 5 times and either relegated or lined a club up for relegation another 5 times.
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Yes he generally struggles in the PL where I don’t think his tactics are as effective.

Currently though (and I did rate Karanka) he’s a far more successful manager than Karanka.
 
BoroMart said:
I dunno Karankas win % with us was 46%, Howes career win % (Some of it in the lower tiers) was 42%.
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Thats not really 🍎 for 🍎 comparison is it. He won more than twice as many games in his first prem season. And his win ratio in his final spell at BFC was 50%.
 
BiggEggo said:
Thats not really 🍎 for 🍎 comparison is it. He won more than twice as many games in his first prem season. And his win ratio in his final spell at BFC was 50%.
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They didn't manage the same clubs at the same levels so you will ever get a like for like. Both had successes and both had failures. Howes most statistically successful time was in League Two and least successful at Burnley. His highs were probably higher, and lows lower
 
BoroMart said:
They didn't manage the same clubs at the same levels so you will ever get a like for like. Both had successes and both had failures. Howes most statistically successful time was in League Two and least successful at Burnley. His highs were probably higher, and lows lower
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I just took a selected view like you did AK at Boro v EH everywhere. I compared like for like both managers first Prem season performance where EH's more win focused approach saw them win more than twice as many games as AK managed. Thats why they survived and we didn't. Most promoted sides realise their best chance of surviving a first season in the prem is to get out of the blocks fast, catch a few teams offguard the first time you play them and hopefully get some early points on the board. Then come Jan they have the nous to be able to stregthen their squad for a tough run in. We started slow and finished slow, with a huge slice of slow inbetween. We never gave ourselves a chance, being a side that could not score goals.

Don't get me wrong overall I enjoyed AK's time here but his approach has proved calamitous at every subsequent club he managed. His tantrums and negative approach in the Prem did for me though.
 
That’s a good point and it’s always hard to compare teams, but in recent years with Leeds, Wolves, Brentford and Bournemouth it does feel as if the teams who blow the Championship away with goals tend to have a better chance of surviving in the PL than the ones who are built on a watertight defence like Karanka’s, though that might just be a feeling. Be interested to see some stats on how attacking a team was in the Champo, and how they fared the season after in the Prem. Norwich and Fulham it doesn’t really work for, they’re far too open for the PL. Huddersfield were ultra defensive and they got battered in the PL, couldn’t buy a goal. Sheff United, brilliant defensively, made the PL look easy for a season. Burnley of course.

Attacking football is more fun to watch than defensive, counter attacking football of course.

I still loved watching that Karanka team though, I felt we’d give absolutely anyone a game because we were so hard to score against. I loved the commitment and organisation and spirit, in a way that front-foot defending was as good to watch as front-foot attacking.

To go back to the point, if I had to pick a manager to win a one-off game… Depends on the squad! If I had to do a Basel and come back from 3 goals down, Eddie Howe for sure, though we might end up losing 7-3. If I was playing Liverpool away? Karanka, it would be 1-0 either way, but it would be a proper dogfight.
 
Am also not sure many, if any managers have a plan B. Eddie Howe got relegated and sacked because his team couldn’t defend and he couldn’t change it. Karanka got sacked and relegated because his team couldn’t score and he couldn’t change it.

I struggle to think of a single manager who’s ever come up with a plan B. Even the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Poch, Mourinho - when their teams go to **** it’s just the same style, but worse.
 
I still maintain that that goal was more down to awful defending than Payet being amazing, it was almost in slow motion.
 
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