Warnock out brigade - Sense of entitlement?

BoroMart said:
No, although we were professional and took our chances, we were still second best for spells of the game, a better quality side would have caused us issues. Fair play on the result tonight, but I didn't lose faith in Warnock after one defeat and I won't regain faith after 1 win
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In regards to being second best in spells of the game. That's going to be the case for most teams as long as we can show some solidity defensively we can ride out being second best.

However, I am in agreement though, I am really happy we won today and it gives me some optimism but I need to see some consistency over multiple games.
 
BoroMart said:
although we were professional and took our chances, we were still second best for spells of the game, a better quality side would have caused us issues.
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Possession of the ball is something of a modern preoccupation. Is is possible to control a game without the ball. We limited a decent SU side to a shot against the post after a player handled the ball and a (very good) shot from outside the area. Otherwise they struggled to create anything of note whereas we could have scored a couple more. I thought we were good value for the win.

Will we trouble the play offs? I doubt it but we will be entertained and infuriated in equal measure along the way!
 
Muttley said:
Possession of the ball is something of a modern preoccupation. Is is possible to control a game without the ball. We limited a decent SU side to a shot against the post after a player handled the ball and a (very good) shot from outside the area. Otherwise they struggled to create anything of note whereas we could have scored a couple more. I thought we were good value for the win.

Will we trouble the play offs? I doubt it but we will be entertained and infuriated in equal measure along the way!
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Yes i agree. Possession is important if you're a team capable of absolutely dominating and creating chances. I was quite happy most of the time with Sheff Utd in possession and i think our players were. When they lost it we were quick to break and they were slack off the ball at times.
 
wilkos_perm said:
Yes i agree. Possession is important if you're a team capable of absolutely dominating and creating chances. I was quite happy most of the time with Sheff Utd in possession and i think our players were. When they lost it we were quick to break and they were slack off the ball at times.
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I seem to remember an owner or chairman speaking about possession and saying "I am in a nightclub and I am chatting to a lady for nearly the whole of the night. As the last song comes on (Herb Alpert), another guy comes along and she ends up dancing with him. Who has got the best result out of that?"
 
Muttley said:
Possession of the ball is something of a modern preoccupation. Is is possible to control a game without the ball.
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It is, but it's very difficult over the course of a season to do that successfully enough to get to play offs or better. OK Karanka did it, but with better players and to be honest he was better at out of possession than Warnock. That's because he recognised how to set traps and win the ball back and then counter intelligently rather than pump it forward in the hope that something might happen.

I agree possession for possessions sake is fruitless. Unless it's used for game management when 2-0 up and 15 to play. Being In Possession and good at it, is the easiest way to defend, and it's something we need to improve for me. I don't think that will happen under Warnock though,.
 
hewielewie said:
I seem to remember an owner or chairman speaking about possession and saying "I am in a nightclub and I am chatting to a lady for nearly the whole of the night. As the last song comes on (Herb Alpert), another guy comes along and she ends up dancing with him. Who has got the best result out of that?"
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The footballing equivalent of that is 60% possession, then losing to a late sucker punch. The problem with that analogy is that it claims that less possession is more likely to lead to a win.....and footballing stats don't support that. This is champions league, but I don't thnik it would be any different at this level.

If you have more possession then you win 49% of games, draw 22% and lose 29% of games and it's more likely to be a win the higher the possession %

www.researchgate.net

(PDF) Relationship between ball possession and match outcome in UEFA Champions League

PDF | This study aimed to verify the relationship between ball possession and match outcome in the UEFA Champions League. Official statistics from five... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net www.researchgate.net

Norwich (1st), Brentford (5th), Watford (6th) in terms of possession last year
Leeds (1st), West Brom (3rd), Fulham (4th) the year before
Norwich (4th), Sheff Utd (6th), Villa (10th) year before (EDIT)

Possession is very important
 
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There is more than one way to skin a cat. Leicester won the league averaging less than 40% possession. Burnley have managed umpteen straight seasons in the prem getting less than their opponents. It's a particularly effective way to play if you have players with inferior technical skills than your opponents.

And as for the Boro we have achieved more success with managers deemed to be pragmatic than expansive.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
There is more than one way to skin a cat. Leicester won the league averaging less than 40% possession. Burnley have managed umpteen straight seasons in the prem getting less than their opponents. It's a particularly effective way to play if you have players with inferior technical skills than your opponents.

And as for the Boro we have achieved more success with managers deemed to be pragmatic than expansive.
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Leicester was a real anomaly, amazing to see, but it worked but I don't think we will see that again in our lifetime. They were amazing defensively, highest in interceptions and successful tackles, one of the best for shots on target, and headers won. They also lucked out that all the big teams were in transition, but still they deserved it.

Burnley, survived in the bottom 6 for that period, that is a measure of avoiding the failure of relegation rather than achieving success.

Burnley were actually the last side to get promoted with negative possession stats, at 48.2% in 15/16. 1 in the last 21 promoted teams had a negative possession %, our possession stats are 44.5% and no one has ever got promoted with that (from the records I've seen)...ergo, we need to pass the ball around a bit more and retain possession.
 
BoroMart said:
Leicester was a real anomaly, amazing to see, but it worked but I don't think we will see that again in our lifetime.

Burnley, survived in the bottom 6 for that period, that is a measure of avoiding the failure of relegation rather than achieving success.

Burnley were actually the last side to get promoted with negative possession stats, at 48.2% in 15/16. 1 in the last 21 promoted teams had a negative possession %, our possession stats are 44.5% and no one has ever got promoted with that...ergo, we need to pass the ball around a bit more and retain possession.
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I do like a good stat and love the counter argument about stats being nonsense.

Is the only measure we have at our disposal.

Bm where did you get the possession stats from or did you work them out?
 
Laughing said:
I do like a good stat and love the counter argument about stats being nonsense.

Is the only measure we have at our disposal.

Bm where did you get the possession stats from or did you work them out?
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whoscored is great for stats.

I think the biggest argument for our 'direct and early' tactic not being successful is our results and league position :D Not saying we should never do it....but being our go to tactic doesn't appear to be working
 
BoroMart said:
It is, but it's very difficult over the course of a season to do that successfully enough to get to play offs or better. OK Karanka did it, but with better players and to be honest he was better at out of possession than Warnock. That's because he recognised how to set traps and win the ball back and then counter intelligently rather than pump it forward in the hope that something might happen.

I agree possession for possessions sake is fruitless. Unless it's used for game management when 2-0 up and 15 to play. Being In Possession and good at it, is the easiest way to defend, and it's something we need to improve for me. I don't think that will happen under Warnock though,.
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We massively dominated possession at times especially at the Riverside under Karanka, but he was quite happy to sit back and break in certain away games. I think it was certainly more of a strategic decision on a game by game basis. Recently it's just been a result of poor performances on and off the ball, excluding last night.
 
BoroMart said:
Leicester was a real anomaly, amazing to see, but it worked but I don't think we will see that again in our lifetime. They were amazing defensively, highest in interceptions and successful tackles, one of the best for shots on target, and headers won. They also lucked out that all the big teams were in transition, but still they deserved it.

Burnley, survived in the bottom 6 for that period, that is a measure of avoiding the failure of relegation rather than achieving success.

Burnley were actually the last side to get promoted with negative possession stats, at 48.2% in 15/16. 1 in the last 21 promoted teams had a negative possession %, our possession stats are 44.5% and no one has ever got promoted with that (from the records I've seen)...ergo, we need to pass the ball around a bit more and retain possession.
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The thing is you are leaving money out of your equations. Possession football is a good tactic if you have the money to spend on players who are technically gifted. We don't.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
The thing is you are leaving money out of your equations. Possession football is a good tactic if you have the money to spend on players who are technically gifted. We don't.
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Cardiff had one of hte biggest budgets last season and had 22nd best possession %, Stoke were 13th on the biggest non-parachute budget. Brentford were 5th and Blackburn were second.

Yes, more money means more likely to have better players, and more able to play possession based football. But tactically choices are layered on top of that. We were 17th for Possession last year and are 19th this year. I think our budgets will be higher up the table than that.

Warnocks tactics are anti-possession, get it forward quickly. Under other managers we would have higher possession, we would need better players and a bigger budget to have the highest possession, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not advocating tika taka, we don't have the players or budget, I'm saying we need to mix it up a bit and have periods of possession, we go forward too quickly too often. We invite pressure too often, by giving the ball away to often, and we don't have resilience to play that way. If we continue to play the way we have this calendar year, ping it forward quickly and concede possession, we will continue to stay in the middle-lower middle of the table.
 
Well I wouldn't disagree with you there. I do think teams can be highly successful with a non possession based approach though, and that it's often easier for teams with a lower budget.
I don't think yesterday's performance would be sustainable for the team we have as you are asking a lot for 33, 34 and 38 year old legs. Howson certainly seemed to run out of steam last year.

We do alter our approach sometimes. Most noticeable is the delivery from the keeper. Every now and then the keeper will spend a game or a half going short rather than hitting it long.

There's also ceeding possession without ceeding control of the match. For large parts of the game, particularly 2nd half we controlled the game without having the ball. That's the first time I've felt we were dominant all season.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
For large parts of the game, particularly 2nd half we controlled the game without having the ball. That's the first time I've felt we were dominant all season.
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it worked yesterday but it's noticeable that our second half form is relegation level, because it's really hard to play that out of possession game week after week and not run out of steam.
 
Jr. SkinnyLegs said:
I understand where the OP and I'm willing to continue to give Warnock time. However, I think the signs from the past few games are that whatever his plan its not being executed on the field by the players. If that continues for the next few games, it is a bit of a concern for Warnock that the players have lost belief and confidence in his management style and tactical plan for matches.

He's made odd decisions as well. No Ikpeazu for a while and I understand he was ill for 1 game but Ikpeazu with Crooks in behind/alongside was causing teams issues and we have gone away from what was working going forward. It would have been a perfect opportunity to play him against Reading who played with 1 or 0 recognized CB's.

I do feel sympathetic for Warnock with the midfield situation (if he wasn't part of the recruitment). Our lack of championship experience in midfield is causing us a multitude of issues. We are not winning any midfield battles and so we can't gain any control over the game defensively or offensively.

I think this may be an eye opening experience for people who were happy to see the back of Morsy and Saville.
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There isn't a 'brigade' just a handful of moaners who think they know better. Every club has them.
 
Block 86 said:
There isn't a 'brigade' just a handful of moaners who think they know better. Every club has them.
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