Union with David Olusoga

Nero said:
Has anyone watched the series on iPlayer or BBC One?

It’s very good if you’re a history fan like me. Well put together and presented with great facts and research. An interesting take on the Gun Powder plot that I had no idea about too. Just shows the power of propaganda.
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Did you see the Scottish people that said they still get angry when they think of Culloden.

Erm ok
 
I might start it tonight before the match, I read some of the excerpts about it and it did seem interesting.

I expect there are some uncomfortable truths in it.
 
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TeaCider said:
I might give start it tonight, I read some of the excerpts about it and it did seem interesting.

I expect there are some uncomfortable truths in it.
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Some really good insights but I won’t spoil it for you.
 
Yes, it is an excellent series. They make really good use of historic documents that backup the detail. Well presented too.
We were in Glasgow and Dublin on holiday this year, and this programme made sense of some of the streets & points of interest in relation to the slave trade and Irish rebellions.
 
A really good programme - great narrative and I like his presentation. Some fascinating detail most of which was completely new to me. I wish TV like this and Horrible Histories had been around when I was at school :(
 
Linthorpe_Exile said:
A really good programme - great narrative and I like his presentation. Some fascinating detail most of which was completely new to me. I wish TV like this and Horrible Histories had been around when I was at school :(
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Just goes to show how limited secondary school history really is. Government teaching young people what it wants them to know. It’s not until you read yourself that learning begins.
 
Nero said:
Just goes to show how limited secondary school history really is. Government teaching young people what it wants them to know. It’s not until you read yourself that learning begins.
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I get the point your making and it is always good to explore topics in a deeper level but we can’t be too nuanced either and you do need to look at the time period in the wider context. Hence my post about the outages Scots as it seems it’s all to easy now to dismiss all historical figures as racists and murderers but you do need context as well.

I think at times these programs can over step the mark. In those terms.

Context is important as well slavery was horrific and batbarbaric but so was putting 5 year old kids inside threshing machines snd mills to clean the mechanisms or down mines . But it happened.

The world was a very different place then and so we’re morals and values that’s not excusing anything btw but we can’t ignore that it happened either.

We can often too pious when we look back.
 
In regards to the union though it always interesting when it shows how unlike the myth that we evil English forced those poor Scot’s in against their will the reality was a lot different.

which links in with my earlier point about picking select parts of history to make a point can be dangerous and misleading
 
Some of the talking heads in it are a bit annoying…

All those facts presented by David and relevant experts then someone comes on and says they’re still bitter about a potato famin or poll tax 🤷🏼‍♂️
 
Jedi boro said:
In regards to the union though it always interesting when it shows how unlike the myth that we evil English forced those poor Scot’s in against their will the reality was a lot different.

which links in with my earlier point about picking select parts of history to make a point can be dangerous and misleading
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Exactly. It’s surprising how much that myth persists with many Scots. Some really smart people too.
 
I am sad and a bit obsessive (to the average person in the street) going on holiday to Ireland and visiting the Famine and Emigration Museums and looking for books on the Irish famine. Its not easy in England to find much and I was never taught anything about it. In school it was interesting when I was 13, but for the 1840s we did the Industrial Revolution and the Charter movement in England. My conclusion on the famine is it left an enormous mistrust and bitterness to the English in Ireland that carried on for several generations with some families. The English establishments came across as totally uncaring and as oppressors, treating the Irish Catholics in affected areas as you would do cattle/slaves. The mistrust and bitterrness carried on certainly until 1923 and I would say it was still there in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. I remember reading Joe Kennedy father of the JFK still disliked the British when he was US ambassador in London in 1940 and did his best to keep USA out of the War, because he believed his grandparents had suffered in Ireland in the Famine and were forced to emigrate. The Great Brigade @ Celtic will display banners of skeleton children and Rangers fans will goad them with songs like the Famine is over, time to go home. All 170 years after the Famine.

Ref Scotland - most Scots did not support the Jacobites in 1745 - the Scottish Jacobite Army were mainly Highlanders and Islanders. There were no brigades of Glaswegians or folk from Edinburgh. People in Glasgow were more interested in setting up tobacco factories, shipyards and cotton mills, cotton and tobacco came from English/British Colonies in the Americas sometimes from Scottish run farms and plantations. Most of the customers were in England/Wales. Goods were moved in Scottish ships with Scottish crews. Economically is was a big disadvantage to be seperated from England. Many Scots grew wealthy on the back of the British Empire, but are shy to admit it.

I read a book called the real Oliver Twist and the mass shipping of young children (typically aged 6 or 7) from London Orphanages to water powered cotton mills in Derbyshire in 1800 was totally wrong and even at the time the majority of the UK population knew it was wrong. The children were subject to abuse of every description. Its amazing any survived, the vast majority did not. We can go back and say that was the times, but only to some degree.
 
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Redwurzel said:
I am sad and a bit obsessive (to the average person in the street) going on holiday to Ireland and visiting the Famine and Emigration Museums and looking for books on the Irish famine. Its not easy in England to find much and I was never taught anything about it. In school it was interesting when I was 13, but for the 1840s we did the Industrial Revolution and the Charter movement in England. My conclusion on the famine is it left an enormous mistrust and bitterness to the English in Ireland that carried on for several generations with some families. The English establishments came across as totally uncaring and as oppressors, treating the Irish Catholics in affected areas as you would do cattle/slaves. The mistrust and bitterrness carried on certainly until 1923 and I would say it was still there in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. I remember reading Joe Kennedy father of the JFK still disliked the British when he was US ambassador in London in 1940 and did his best to keep USA out of the War, because he believed his grandparents had suffered in Ireland in the Famine and were forced to emigrate. The Great Brigade @ Celtic will display banners of skeleton children and Rangers fans will goad them with songs like the Famine is over, time to go home. All 170 years after the Famine.

Ref Scotland - most Scots did not support the Jacobites in 1745 - the Scottish Jacobite Army were mainly Highlanders and Islanders. There were no brigades of Glaswegians or folk from Edinburgh. People in Glasgow were more interested in setting up tobacco factories, shipyards and cotton mills, cotton and tobacco came from English/British Colonies in the Americas sometimes from Scottish run farms and plantations. Most of the customers were in England/Wales. Goods were moved in Scottish ships with Scottish crews. Economically is was a big disadvantage to be seperated from England. Many Scots grew wealthy on the back of the British Empire, but are shy to admit it.

I read a book called the real Oliver Twist and the mass shipping of young children (typically aged 6 or 7) from London Orphanages to water powered cotton mills in Derbyshire in 1800 was totally wrong and even at the time the majority of the UK population knew it was wrong. The children were subject to abuse of every description. Its amazing any survived, the vast majority did not. We can go back and say that was the times, but only to some degree.
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But my point is it happened though and it was a different time then but people that bring up hatred and resentment from 300 years ago is frankly ludicrous should I hate South Africa for rourkes drift.
 
Jedi boro said:
But my point is it happened though and it was a different time then but people that bring up hatred and resentment from 300 years ago is frankly ludicrous should I hate South Africa for rourkes drift.
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Same about hating English in general. The average English person has absolutely nothing to do with previous political decisions in Ireland. I made this point to some ultra nationalist Irish person on Twitter before.
 
Nero said:
Same about hating English in general. The average English person has absolutely nothing to do with previous political decisions in Ireland. I made this point to some ultra nationalist Irish person on Twitter before.
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Exactly it just engenders that hate.

There’s absolutely no doubt at all that the movie brave heart boosted support for the SNP, and fed into this mantra.
 
It's amazing how little Irish history is taught in schools, it's not that long since we were one country.
Nero said:
Same about hating English in general. The average English person has absolutely nothing to do with previous political decisions in Ireland. I made this point to some ultra nationalist Irish person on Twitter before.
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The average English person has nothing to do with current political decisions, never mind past

Ireland was part of this country until pretty recently. Why shouldn't we know about the history there?
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
It's amazing how little Irish history is taught in schools, it's not that long since we were one country.

The average English person has nothing to do with current political decisions, never mind past

Ireland was part of this country until pretty recently. Why shouldn't we know about the history there?
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More people in the UK should be taught and know more about the history of the islands.
 
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