UK Timber shortage

I never did say timber shortages were a result of brexit as it happens. And I conceded twice to you that they weren't. I know you want to "WIN" the internets and prove your point but here's the thing: you, and it should be noted only you, were the only brexiteer on this thread who tried to debate with facts and not personal abuse. I happily conceded the point that timber shortages weren't yet the result of brexit, as the trade restrictions haven't yet been implemented.

This is the bit most of you aren't getting. I want to be proven wrong, I want to be assured everything will be OK. Because, I think that Brexit is the most stupid, self destructive, ill thought out and downright dangerous thing this country has ever done. I want people to prove me wrong. The fact people are getting angry and just attacking me rather than proving me wrong is strengthening my feelings.

So, there we have it. You'll think I had a "mare" or whatever phrase you want use on this thread because you think this is some sort of weird competiotjn, some battle between right and wrong. I don't think it is, I think it's a decision that affects 66 million people and I still haven't seen enough evidence to suggest it isn't catastrophic.


Do you think that our supply chain problem would have been shown up a few years down the line without brexit then? Given covid is likely to have reduced in impact by then?
I have no idea when supply chain problems would have surfaced, I am sure hauliers were caught unawares by the pandemic. A free market trends to balance itself over time if left to its own.

And you did suggest that timber shortages were a result of brexit then ranted for 3 or 4 pages about bullying then switched to food shortages.

As I said you bore me, you're not interested in debate you are interested only in your rhetoric.

If brexit turns into a roaring success you would hate it, I suspect.

I don't want to win this argument or the timber one, I already did with a balanced, researched viewpoint.
 
I have no idea when supply chain problems would have surfaced, I am sure hauliers were caught unawares by the pandemic. A free market trends to balance itself over time if left to its own.

And you did suggest that timber shortages were a result of brexit then ranted for 3 or 4 pages about bullying then switched to food shortages.

As I said you bore me, you're not interested in debate you are interested only in your rhetoric.

If brexit turns into a roaring success you would hate it, I suspect.

I don't want to win this argument or the timber one, I already did with a balanced, researched viewpoint.
You have me all wrong, it's like you believe the whole rhetoric. Please read me last post again and this time digest the words. You have ignored every single point I have made apart form the one about your desire too "win"

It's utterly baffling to me that, on a thread where I have debated with you, and conceded you are correct and my hypothesis was wrong, that you state "you're not interested in debate" I've debated with you in this very thread. Why did you have to spoil all your good work? You were the first brexiteer in a year to actually try and debate with facts. The first person to actually engage and do some research. I enjoy that. Then on the very same thread that happened you say I wasn't interested in it? It's weird. I don't know why you feel you have to lie about me. Especially when you yourself have proven it to be wrong? I don't get that. I thought you'd finally learnt what I was asking for all this time and now you've regressed back to the "Oh it's just small-town arguing" lie. Don't spoil the good work. You were the first brexitist to try and debate faucets with me, and I enjoyed it. Don't waste all that be reverting to the usual lie about me.
 
This is true.

I think we can judge the first 5 years since the vote though. Does anyone think it has been a success in any way?
Yes, we definitely can judge, but this 5 years is just the warm-up to the main event.

But in the warm-up, we've had:

Growth went from best in the G7, to worst, and although we've had a good coronavirus bounce, we dropped the lowest of the G7. We're at the biggest net growth loss, no matter which way anyone looks at it. The North East is predicted to be the worst hit, by lost growth, due to brexit, as per the tory economic impact report.

NHS waiting lists have gone up 50% since then (from 3m to 4.5m), and that was pre-pandemic too. They've gone up since because they've poorly managed the pandemic.

Whether the NHS waiting lists have gone up since 2012 and through 2016 through being poorly run by the Tories, underfunded or because a load of nurses have left (from the UK) and from the EU, either way it's the Tory's, leavers and their voters fault. Leave really isn't worth the price of having the Tory's, for most, especially those in the North Eeast, especially if you're not in a household earning 100k a year. When Labour were in they left the waiting lists at the lowest they had been, for a point of reference.

"The Tories, the party of the people, as long as you're not the people at the bottom who rely on public healthcare, or the people who suffer most when we can't compete with the EU"

We've not had hardly any success from Brexit, it's a definite net loss up to now. We've had plenty of failures, luckily for the Tories this appears masked to people who don't want to see it.
 
try and debate faucets with me
I like the retro ones with the chunky turning tops clearly showing H or C in a pearl type inset.
The modern levered type are too flimsy for my liking. Although I suppose they are easier to control with your feet when in the bath, if for instance you want to add more hot water.
Not keen on mixer taps at all.
 
We've not had hardly any success from Brexit, it's a definite net loss up to now. We've had plenty of failures, luckily for the Tories this appears masked to people who don't want to see it.
An interesting point would be that, not only have we had very few successes, most brexit debates (such as this one on timber) have no been recalibrated so a pro brexit stance isn't to show a success, it's to disprove a failure. Which shows how far we have fallen. From sunlit uplands and sovereignty to having desperate arguments just to prove we haven't gone backwards
 
You have me all wrong, it's like you believe the whole rhetoric. Please read me last post again and this time digest the words. You have ignored every single point I have made apart form the one about your desire too "win"

It's utterly baffling to me that, on a thread where I have debated with you, and conceded you are correct and my hypothesis was wrong, that you state "you're not interested in debate" I've debated with you in this very thread. Why did you have to spoil all your good work? You were the first brexiteer in a year to actually try and debate with facts. The first person to actually engage and do some research. I enjoy that. Then on the very same thread that happened you say I wasn't interested in it? It's weird. I don't know why you feel you have to lie about me. Especially when you yourself have proven it to be wrong? I don't get that. I thought you'd finally learnt what I was asking for all this time and now you've regressed back to the "Oh it's just small-town arguing" lie. Don't spoil the good work. You were the first brexitist to try and debate faucets with me, and I enjoyed it. Don't waste all that be reverting to the usual lie about me.
As I said you bore me. First brexiteer....

You are a fool St. Have a good life.
 
As I said you bore me. First brexiteer....

You are a fool St. Have a good life.
I'm just asking you to be reasonable. I genuinely thought we had a breakthough with someone finally trying to discuss facts. I'm really disappointed you then regressed to the old lies. I don't get what you're not seeing? We had a discussion, we used facts and a conclusion was made. Why do you have to then go back to being nasty? Use your behaviour in the first part of this thread and hopefully others will follow
 
Anyone who thinks the driver shortages and supply issues are not a medium-high percentage due to brexit is having a laugh, does not have a clue, or does not want to see through brexit or tory bias. The pandemic has made things worse, of course it has, but it's not a valid shield to hide behind.
Anyone not acknowledging that there are massive problems is in denial. Yes, you may not see it in Tesco, or sitting in your house reading the paper, but it doesn't mean it's not there, and even 5% change across the UK can have massive implications.

Even if the issues had started prior to brexit and the pandemic, then maybe address those issues, or plan for those additional issues, before going ahead and fighting your main suppliers/ competition, and sources of drivers and labour. Maybe when a pandemic does hit, relax the worker/ driver/ supply rules to relieve any issues?

The clowns who have not seen the initial problem, seen the amplification of it and not reacted to fix it are the clowns that the tory's and leavers voted for. There's a correlation there, and it's brexit, tory's and leavers, yes the pandemic has amplified it, unknowns often do, that's why you get/ keep your house in order before starting to cut off your arms and legs. We just decided to cut off our arms and legs a few years before a pandemic, it's not the pandemic's fault, it's ours for not managing it or being robust enough to handle it.

Also, trying to force our young to go into HGV driving, which is a career that may not exist in 10-20 years, when they have access to one of the best education systems in the world, is a bit backwards (a bit like brexit). Use a resource that does want to drive HGV's and doesn't have the same aspirations or education. Nothing against lorry drivers of course, I employ a couple and we would go bust without them, but it's not a career which is going to appeal to the young, automation will take over this trade, so they will train in automation or other digital aspects etc. Or they will use their skills and just take them elsewhere, where they can be put to better use.
 
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OK. You disagree. I don't know what more you want me to say about 2016-2020 that will add any value to the discussion.
Will this do?
The negotiations and subsequent votes in Parliament didn't go as well as expected and eventually led to a majority government led by the current PM. He managed to push a deal through and we are now in the early stages of dealing with and adapting to the consequences of that deal.

Is that all you can bring to mind about the consequences of the last 4-5 years that are a non monetary effect of the Brexit campaigners and the choice made by 17.4m people?

'The negotiations and subsequent votes in Parliament didn't go as well as expected'

Many of us said the 2016 referendum vote did not have the required validity to be enacted simply because, since it had not been spelled out what Brexit actually meant, not one of the people who voted for Brexit knew what they had voted for. They all had their own utopian version of Brexit, but also a 'that's not my Brexit' too. It was therefore open to question whether people would have voted the same way had they known which version they were getting. Remember, no plan had been presented for scrutiny. Deliberately.

The inevitable consequence of that was that the Government had to work out retrospectively what people had voted for. Without a clearly set out manifesto of what Brexit meant, they could only base this on what was said in the campaigns, which was confused, often impossibly contradictory, unrealistic and with real or possible consequences that had previously been dismissed or ignored, but now needed confronting and addressing.

Had Brexit campaigners set out what they actually meant by Brexit, fundamentally the new trading relationship we wanted with the vast, powerful economic behemoth on our doorstep that we were threatening to turn into a competitor we intended to undermine, and a careful, provisional, realistic timetable and plan worked out how to get there, then the Government would have been able to legitimately implement that plan and Parliament would not have stood in it's way. Theresa May was authorised to trigger Article 50 with a 498-114 vote in February 2017 remember.

Instead, we had stalemate in Parliament while everyone argued over what Brexit meant based on the promises of the campaigns and what it should mean based on the narrowness of the vote, not to mention the legality of it.

Brexit meant virtually nothing else happened in Parliament or addressed by our hamstrung Government for nearly half a decade. It's extraordinary.

If you think that doesn't matter on grounds other than economic, let me give you one now hugely important ramification. We weren't remotely prepared for the pandemic, despite the many lessons and recommendations coming from the 2016 Exercise Cygnus flu pandemic simulation. We carried out an exercise, discovered some important lessons, then didn't get round to act on them because we had a government in virtual paralysis over one single other issue. Brexit. then, to top that off, Brexit led directly to not one but three Brexit governments, full of a conveyor belt of incompetent, corrupt entities who approached the pandemic with the sort of entitled, privileged mindset that you get when you continually reward rather than punish these very, very, stupid people with high office.

Then we have the impact on our reputation. As a people we used to be regarded as decent, tolerant, level headed. The world has looked on open mouthed. Their view of our decency and tolerance has taken a dive. Level headed? We are seen as having lost our minds.

As for our government and institutions. We now have a PM who lies to the Queen and everyone else. His government ignores conventions because they get in the way of its short term interest and it can, because Brexit exposed these failings. Brexit demonstrated our democracy can be easily and cheaply bought. Delivering on the promises of Brexit has been so impossible it has seen the UK government attempting to introduce legislation that would not only allow it to break international law but that was the intention of the legislation and it has led to the most senior legal officials in the land advocate this law breaking. Again, extraordinary.

We have soured relations with our allies in Europe and America, while, for a time out of necessity, cosying up to allies of Putin, the Trumpian far right and China.

We have put UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens here through years of torturous uncertainty and more bureacracy, while at the same time removing rights some people were born with without even allowing them a say.

We have diminished UK security with our withdrawal from Europol, Egnos and Gallileo. We have put cancer patients at risk with our withdrawal from Euratom. We have diminished our Universtities and students with our withdrawal from Ersamus and our science suffered with our withdrawal from Horizon 2020 and the resulting uncertainty, while going forward although the deal struck gives us access to the EU funds, we have lost influence and any say in how the funds are spent.

Despite what people were told, the UK were the most influential country in the EU and we shaped the EU to follow our interests everywhere it mattered to us, from the inside, because we had exceptional diplomats and civil servants. Some have stayed with the EU. some have been sacked because their intelligence, experience and practicality meant they weren't 'brexity' enough and in any case, Dominic Cummings wanted more mavericks to come in, ffs!

I could go on, but I've tried to stay away from the direct financial costs, although everything above has had or will have financial implications to accompany the non monetary ones, as well as the opportunity costs, it is just that it will take years to be able to produce the graphs.
 
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Is that all you can bring to mind about the consequences of the last 4-5 years that are not a non monetary effect of the Brexit campaigners and the choice made by 17.4m people?

'The negotiations and subsequent votes in Parliament didn't go as well as expected'

Many of us said the 2016 referendum vote did not have the required validity to be enacted simply because, since it had not been spelled out what Brexit actually meant, not one of the people who voted for Brexit knew what they had voted for. They all had their own utopian version of Brexit, but also a 'that's not my Brexit' too. It was therefore open to question whether people would have voted the same way had they known which version they were getting. Remember, no plan had been presented for scrutiny. Deliberately.

The inevitable consequence of that was that the Government had to work out retrospectively what people had voted for. Without a clearly set out manifesto of what Brexit meant, they could only base this on what was said in the campaigns, which was confused, often impossibly contradictory, unrealistic and with real or possible consequences that had previously been dismissed or ignored, but now needed confronting and addressing.

Had Brexit campaigners set out what they actually meant by Brexit, fundamentally the new trading relationship we wanted with the vast, powerful economic behemoth on our doorstep that we were threatening to turn into a competitor we intended to undermine, and a careful, provisional, realistic timetable and plan worked out how to get there, then the Government would have been able to have legitimately proceed to implement that plan and Parliament would not have stood in it's way, just as Theresa May was authorised to trigger Article 50 with a 498-114 vote in February 2017.

Instead, we had stalemate in Parliament while everyone argued over what Brexit meant based on the promises of the campaigns and what it should mean based on the narrowness of the vote, not to mention the legality of it.

Brexit meant virtually nothing else happened in Parliament or addressed by our hamstrung Government for nearly half a decade. It's extraordinary.

If you think that doesn't matter on grounds other than economic, let me give you one now hugely important ramification. We weren't remotely prepared for the pandemic, despite the many lessons and recommendations coming from the 2016 Exercise Cygnus flu pandemic simulation. Brexit has led to a Brexit government, full of incompetent, corrupt entities who approached the pandemic with the sort of entitled, privileged mindset that you get when you continually reward rather than punish them.

Then we have the impact on our reputation. As a people we used to be regarded as decent, tolerant, level headed. The world has looked on open mouthed. Their view of our decency and tolerance has taken a dive. Level headed? We are seen as having lost our minds.

As for our government and institutions. We now have a PM who lies to the Queen and everyone else. His government ignores conventions because they get in the way of its short term interest and it can, because Brexit exposed these failings. Brexit demonstrated our democracy can be easily and cheaply bought. Delivering on the promises of Brexit has been so impossible it has seen the UK government attempting to introduce legislation that would not only allow it to break international law but that was the intention of the legislation and it has led to the most senior legal officials in the land advocate this law breaking. Again, extraordinary.

We have soured relations with our allies in Europe and America, while, for a time out of necessity, cosying up to allies of Putin, the Trumpian far right and China.

We have put UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens here through years of torturous uncertainty and more bureacracy, while at the same time removing rights some people were born with without even allowing them a say.

We have diminished UK security with our withdrawal from Europol, Egnos and Gallileo. We have put cancer patients at risk with our withdrawal from Euratom. We have diminished our Universtities and students with our withdrawal from Ersamus and our science suffered with our withdrawal from Horizon 2020 and the resulting uncertainty, while going forward although the deal struck gives us access to the EU funds, we have lost influence and any say in how the funds are spent.

Despite what people were told, the UK were the most influential country in the EU and we shaped the EU to follow our interests everywhere it mattered to us, from the inside, because we had exceptional diplomats and civil servants. Some have stayed with the EU. some have been sacked because their intelligence, experience and practicality meant they weren't 'brexity' enough and in any case, Dominic Cummings wanted more mavericks to come in.

I could go on, but I've tried to stay away from the direct financial costs, but everything above has had or will have financial implications to accompany the non monetary ones, as well as the opportunity costs, it is just that it will take years to be able to produce the graphs.
I prefer my summary, but thanks for the passion and energy you have demonstrated. I'm sure it will take you far.
 
Yes, we definitely can judge, but this 5 years is just the warm-up to the main event.

But in the warm-up, we've had:

Growth went from best in the G7, to worst, and although we've had a good coronavirus bounce, we dropped the lowest of the G7. We're at the biggest net growth loss, no matter which way anyone looks at it. The North East is predicted to be the worst hit, by lost growth, due to brexit, as per the tory economic impact report.

NHS waiting lists have gone up 50% since then (from 3m to 4.5m), and that was pre-pandemic too. They've gone up since because they've poorly managed the pandemic.

Whether the NHS waiting lists have gone up since 2012 and through 2016 through being poorly run by the Tories, underfunded or because a load of nurses have left (from the UK) and from the EU, either way it's the Tory's, leavers and their voters fault. Leave really isn't worth the price of having the Tory's, for most, especially those in the North Eeast, especially if you're not in a household earning 100k a year. When Labour were in they left the waiting lists at the lowest they had been, for a point of reference.

"The Tories, the party of the people, as long as you're not the people at the bottom who rely on public healthcare, or the people who suffer most when we can't compete with the EU"

We've not had hardly any success from Brexit, it's a definite net loss up to now. We've had plenty of failures, luckily for the Tories this appears masked to people who don't want to see it.
Oh be quiet with facts and evidence, you're spoiling my view of the sunlit uplands
 
The negotiations and subsequent votes in Parliament didn't go as well as expected
I mean you can lead a horse to water, but if he wants to be thirsty he'll stay thirsty.

It was repeatedly pointed out that the result of a leave vote would create a crisis in westminister because, you know, the referendum was defined to make a mess. Brexit was such a loosely defined concept that it could be interpreted in at least 12 ways, as per the indicative votes debacle. The public voted for MPs to try and define what you all voted for after teh vote. When at least 30% of the fookers are on the take, and the whole system is entirely representing of the public voting, then you end up with an absolute shytshow. This was pointed out repeatedly, but you thought it would go better than this?! then the negotiations with Brussels, repeatedly it was stated that we 'do not hold all the cards', 'they don't need us more than we need them' and 'they will protect their membership first and foremost, not us'.

Absolute cuckoo land for anyone to think that negotiations and parliament would be anything other than a complete mess, regardless who was in power.
 
Is that all you can bring to mind about the consequences of the last 4-5 years that are not a non monetary effect of the Brexit campaigners and the choice made by 17.4m people?

'The negotiations and subsequent votes in Parliament didn't go as well as expected'
👏👏Great post.

I won't highlight it all, but will just comment some extra on that highlighted line.

It went as well as I expected, as I know 600m has more power than 60m, they're the "big man" so to speak, and we actually need them more than they need us as they're 50% of our trade and we're 10% of theirs.

It was an absolute nightmare of a fuckup of monumental proportions, and literally, every remainer said it was going to be that way. LEavers only got 10% of what they wanted, as there were 10 versions of leave fighting each other, but crucially they could all fight on the same side against remain.

Leave could be whatever fallacy the leavers wanted it to be. They could have literally promised gold and unicorns for everyone and it would have been more realistic than them thinking we would be staying in the single market, without accepting freedom of movement, or us getting 350m a week, never mind that actually going to the NHS.

Leavers were more duped by their own side, they knew they could only get 10% of what was promised, but that wouldn't be enough to win, so they made up 90% to catch all the suckers, is was the best fishing trip anyone has ever seen, some haul 🎣 🎣 🎣 🎣
 
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I mean you can lead a horse to water, but if he wants to be thirsty he'll stay thirsty.

It was repeatedly pointed out that the result of a leave vote would create a crisis in westminister because, you know, the referendum was defined to make a mess. Brexit was such a loosely defined concept that it could be interpreted in at least 12 ways, as per the indicative votes debacle. The public voted for MPs to try and define what you all voted for after teh vote. When at least 30% of the fookers are on the take, and the whole system is entirely representing of the public voting, then you end up with an absolute shytshow. This was pointed out repeatedly, but you thought it would go better than this?! then the negotiations with Brussels, repeatedly it was stated that we 'do not hold all the cards', 'they don't need us more than we need them' and 'they will protect their membership first and foremost, not us'.

Absolute cuckoo land for anyone to think that negotiations and parliament would be anything other than a complete mess, regardless who was in power.
There are people on here who are massively anti brexit (which is fine by the way, each to their own) but you can't be anti brexit and then vote for Boris Johnson in the last election when his number one priority was "Getting Brexit Done".
 
👏👏Great post.

I won't highlight it all, but will just comment some extra on that highlighted line.

It went as well as I expected, as I know 600m has more power than 60m, they're the "big man" so to speak, and we actually need them more than they need us as they're 50% of our trade and we're 10% of theirs.

It was an absolute nightmare of a fuckup of monumental proportions, and literally, every remainer said it was going to be that way. LEavers only got 10% of what they wanted, as there were 10 versions of leave fighting each other, but crucially they could all fight on the same side against remain.

Leave could be whatever fallacy the leavers wanted it to be. They could have literally promised gold and unicorns for everyone and it would have been more realistic than them thinking we would be staying in the single market, without accepting freedom of movement, or us getting 350m a week, never mind that actually going to the NHS.

Leavers were more duped by their own side, they knew they could only get 10% of what was promised, but that wouldn't be enough to win, so they made up 90% to catch all the suckers, is was the best fishing trip anyone has ever seen, some haul 🎣 🎣 🎣 🎣
Sad but true
 
There are people on here who are massively anti brexit (which is fine by the way, each to their own) but you can't be anti brexit and then vote for Boris Johnson in the last election when his number one priority was "Getting Brexit Done".

Depends a little bit on how anti Brexit you were compared to anti Corbyn, or whether you believed Corbyn and his office would deliver Brexit against the wishes of its party members anyway, I suppose.
 
There are people on here who are massively anti brexit (which is fine by the way, each to their own) but you can't be anti brexit and then vote for Boris Johnson in the last election when his number one priority was "Getting Brexit Done".
Didn't you vote independent, based in Great Ayton? :unsure:
 
Depends a little bit on how anti Brexit you were compared to anti Corbyn, or whether you believed Corbyn and his office would deliver Brexit against the wishes of its party members anyway, I suppose.
I know A LOT of people who just voted Tory as they couldn't bear the thought of Corbyn and Dianne Abbott, they saw that as a bigger risk than the "average" Brexit, although in hindsight most of them say this version of Brexit is going to be worse than JC and DA, especially for our area.

I know a few who voted tory as they think it's marginally better for them, and they're at no real financial risk, even if they lost 50% (which is unlikely), but they actively told people to vote labour, and vote against what they themselves were voting for.

I suppose I'm almost in this latter category, so much in that if it all goes t*ts up then I'll get hit, but nowhere near as much as most would, and there's a low chance of me ending up out work, as I suppose I could just drop down a level, or go abroad. I still voted labour though, even against some of my financial interests, and even though I thought JC would be a poor leader. But I did this as I think it was better choice for most of the people who I care about, and the area, who aren't in as good of a position.
 
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I know A LOT of people who just voted Tory as they couldn't bear the thought of Corbyn and Dianne Abbott, they saw that as a bigger risk than the "average" Brexit, although in hindsight most of them say this version of Brexit is going to be worse than JC and DA, especially for our area.

I know a few who voted tory as they think it's marginally better for them, and they're at no real financial risk, even if they lost 50% (which is unlikely), but they actively told people to vote labour, and vote against what they themselves were voting for.

I suppose I'm almost in this latter category, so much in that if it all goes t*ts up then I'll get hit, but nowhere near as much as most would, and there's a low chance of me ending up out work, as I suppose I could just drop down a level, or go abroad. I still voted labour though, even against some of my financial interests, and even though I thought JC would be a poor leader. But I did this as I think it was better choice for most of the people who I care about, and the area, who aren't in as good of a position.
I thought a fair number of the anti Corbyn brigade that I spoke to used that as an excuse to cover their wish for Brexit.

Small sample size admittedly, but prior to the last election when you dug a little almost always there was a Brexit agenda just under the surface.

The tories didn't win by a lot of votes they won a lot of seats by a very small majority.
 
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