The Single Market... Johnsons lies come home to roost

Sorry but isn't that exactly what Brexiteers were saying about getting their cake and eating it from the deal with the EU. Didn't happen then. Won't happen now.

I think the EU will be slow to impose any sanctions because they are very wary of being painted as the bad guys. But sooner or later they will run out of patience with this clown.

No doubt a matter of time before French wine and German cars are mentioned!

But still managing to putting a bill through Parliament this week. Totally unnecessary, until you realise it’s designed to disenfranchise anything up to 3.5Million people’s ability to vote. Those without photo bearing ID
Because of the inadequacy of our constitutional arrangements impossible to stop.
The Republican Party in some states in the US are pulling the same stunt.

People have no idea what we are sleepwalking into here. We have left the EU to claim our sovereignty and power and this government is in the process of dismantling the judicial review system, making it more and more difficult for those that wouldn't generally vote for them to vote and changing consituency lines (amongst a load of other things). Where do folk think all of that ends up? It's a serious question.
 
Sorry but isn't that exactly what Brexiteers were saying about getting their cake and eating it from the deal with the EU. Didn't happen then. Won't happen now.

I think the EU will be slow to impose any sanctions because they are very wary of being painted as the bad guys. But sooner or later they will run out of patience with this clown.
They are behind, I ran out if paceince with him on HIGNFY
 
But that would never have satisfied the rabid dogs behind the whole thing and now running government. And it could never have satisfied the racists.
Absolutely. Johnson and the ERG seem to think they can return to days of Empire when Britain spend years not really getting involved in European matters.
 
Absolutely. Johnson and the ERG seem to think they can return to days of Empire when Britain spend years not really getting involved in European matters.
I am glad we are out of the political behometh. That doesn't mean I don't also want a single market/economic simplicity. I have always consistently posted this way.
Nor does it mean I don't want massive European/international cooperation.
Nor does it mean I am wedded to Empires, ERG or this current Government.

There was always going to have to be compromises by everyone - there still will be.
We can be out of the EU and have grown up cooperation. We will and the compromise will have to be made by:
1. The fanatics on the far right and left. We simply can't have our cake and eat it, or pretend nobody else has power.
2. The EU liberals in the UK who can tolerate nothing else.
 
I am glad we are out of the political behometh. That doesn't mean I don't also want a single market/economic simplicity. I have always consistently posted this way.
Nor does it mean I don't want massive European/international cooperation.
Nor does it mean I am wedded to Empires, ERG or this current Government.

There was always going to have to be compromises by everyone - there still will be.
We can be out of the EU and have grown up cooperation. We will and the compromise will have to be made by:
1. The fanatics on the far right and left. We simply can't have our cake and eat it, or pretend nobody else has power.
2. The EU liberals in the UK who can tolerate nothing else.

But if we joined the single market and customs union - the economic relationship you mention, we'd be affected by the political decisions of the bloc with no say in how they're made. We'd be subject to ECJ rulings as well.

Beyond some doctrinaire dislike of politicians, I can't see how that is better than being a proper member, able to influence these decisions that massively affect us?
 
But that would never have satisfied the rabid dogs behind the whole thing and now running government. And it could never have satisfied the racists.
I agree with this.

If it had been a soft brexit, keeping us within SM & CU with free movement then there would still be an ongoing howling from the far right to push for total exit.

At least this current mess shows we need access to the SM & CU so that when we do eventually rejoin then it will be easy to point to the shambles that it was when we were outside of it.
 
But if we joined the single market and customs union - the economic relationship you mention, we'd be affected by the political decisions of the bloc with no say in how they're made. We'd be subject to ECJ rulings as well.

Beyond some doctrinaire dislike of politicians, I can't see how that is better than being a proper member, able to influence these decisions that massively affect us?
You and I could sit in a room forever and remain unaligned re the EU and where it was/is going.

We will not influence the higher direction of travel of the EU from within any more than we have been doing so since Major marched us to Maastricht in 93. That is the whole point, it is relentless.
 
But if we joined the single market and customs union - the economic relationship you mention, we'd be affected by the political decisions of the bloc with no say in how they're made. We'd be subject to ECJ rulings as well.

Beyond some doctrinaire dislike of politicians, I can't see how that is better than being a proper member, able to influence these decisions that massively affect us?
Absolutely, joining the SM/CU is just the least worst of the options.

What's happened is essentially a final hurrah from the baby boomer and older generation that will slowly get rolled back over the next 20 years or so as the voting demographic changes.

We will be a full member again, it's a matter of time, will we ever have the same powers and decision making rights that we had before we left? Very unlikely.

Well done everyone, well done.
 
Absolutely, joining the SM/CU is just the least worst of the options.

What's happened is essentially a final hurrah from the baby boomer and older generation that will slowly get rolled back over the next 20 years or so as the voting demographic changes.

We will be a full member again, it's a matter of time, will we ever have the same powers and decision making rights that we had before we left? Very unlikely.

Well done everyone, well done.

Absolutely this. The unicorn was always the notion that you can separate economic and political union because the truth is that you can't and never could. What will now happen though is that we will be forced to rejoin at some point having lost the very, very special status we enjoyed previously and ultimately we will have ceded any power and control rather than taken any back. It's inevitable. The only question is how and when.
 
does it mean I don't want massive European/international cooperation.
Nor does it mean I am wedded to Empires, ERG or this current Government.
I am glad we are out of the political behometh. That doesn't mean I don't also want a single market/economic simplicity. I have always consistently posted this way.
Nor does it mean I don't want massive European/international cooperation.
Nor does it mean I am wedded to Empires, ERG or this current Government.

There was always going to have to be compromises by everyone - there still will be.
We can be out of the EU and have grown up cooperation. We will and the compromise will have to be made by:
1. The fanatics on the far right and left. We simply can't have our cake and eat it, or pretend nobody else has power.
2. The EU liberals in the UK who can tolerate nothing else.
Compromise indeed. However, where is the compromise in the ideological exit implemented by Johnson and his puppet masters?

A compromise would have looked a bit more like the initial deal proposed by May. It was the hardline ERG who kicked off about that not more liberal minded people in favour of the EU.

So, instead of a compromise, 16.5 million people who voted remain have been completely ignored by Johnson and his cronies.
 
1. The fanatics on the far right and left. We simply can't have our cake and eat it, or pretend nobody else has power.
2. The EU liberals in the UK who can tolerate nothing else.
1. Agreed, fanatical anti-EU people need to chill the f
2. The vast majority of people I have spoken to could accept but not like out but with SM access. You have described a unicorn, good luck finding that type of person.
 
You and I could sit in a room forever and remain unaligned re the EU and where it was/is going.

We will not influence the higher direction of travel of the EU from within any more than we have been doing so since Major marched us to Maastricht in 93. That is the whole point, it is relentless.

So give up any influence because of some erroneous, fatalistic understanding of how the EU works? That would be your middle ground? All the same processes would be there, we'd still be as affected by them of we stayed in the SM, we'd just have no influence. No chance of representation in the bloc we were part of.

British lawmakers were intimately involved in the drafting of the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties, we did have some influence. Who do you think makes up the commission if not citizens from EU member states? Major was a British Prime Minister and he obviously enthusiastically approved of Maastricht, as did Brown of Lisbon.

We had a seat on the council and as the second largest economy (amd champion of smaller states that were less keen on further integration e.g. Denmark, Netherlands, V4) we weren't going to be bounced into anything.
 
Compromise indeed. However, where is the compromise in the ideological exit implemented by Johnson and his puppet masters?

A compromise would have looked a bit more like the initial deal proposed by May. It was the hardline ERG who kicked off about that not more liberal minded people in favour of the EU.

So, instead of a compromise, 16.5 million people who voted remain have been completely ignored by Johnson and his cronies.

Not just the remain voters who have been ignored, I'd imagine the majority of Brexit voters didn't have this version of Brexit in mind.
 
So give up any influence because of some erroneous, fatalistic understanding of how the EU works? That would be your middle ground? All the same processes would be there, we'd still be as affected by them of we stayed in the SM, we'd just have no influence. No chance of representation in the bloc we were part of.

British lawmakers were intimately involved in the drafting of the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties, we did have some influence. Who do you think makes up the commission if not citizens from EU member states? Major was a British Prime Minister and he obviously enthusiastically approved of Maastricht, as did Brown of Lisbon.

We had a seat on the council and as the second largest economy (amd champion of smaller states that were less keen on further integration e.g. Denmark, Netherlands, V4) we weren't going to be bounced into anything.

Exactly this. No leave voter has ever been able to square that circle
 
Not just the remain voters who have been ignored, I'd imagine the majority of Brexit voters didn't have this version of Brexit in mind.
Definitely. Even those who thought a bit more deeply about it probably wouldn't have wanted the shambles that is currently happening.
 
Exactly this. No leave voter has ever been able to square that circle
...to your satisfaction.
Major is the politician I despise most for his role in accelerating the EU. He went with it because he supported it. It didn't and doesn't make him right.
Veto my ****. A veto is irrelevant when you have a PM committed to the whole "project" in any case.

I will switch out now as there are the usual suspects emerging and ganging up.
 
...to your satisfaction.
Major is the politician I despise most for his role in accelerating the EU. He went with it because he supported it. It didn't and doesn't make him right.
Veto my ****. A veto is irrelevant when you have a PM committed to the whole "project" in any case.

I will switch out now as there are the usual suspects emerging and ganging up.

To anyone’s reasonable satisfaction, largely because it can’t be. No ganging up as far as I can see.

And the power of veto on the major issues would not have been in the hands of the PM or government since failure to exercise them would need to be ratified by referendum. It’s once again an erroneous prediction of what might have happened with a veto vote without any real evidence.
 
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