The Reckoning - BBC Drama on Savile

Watched the first one, thought Coogan was outstanding, but he did seem a bit Paul Calf!

My problem is discerning fact from drama. I think I'll take it as a drama for the rest of the episodes as the key facts are out there. Dramas like this may make people today be more vigilant, because you would be naive to think this isn't still going on in plain sight (see Russell Brand allegatiojns)

For what it's worth I don't think there was a conspiracy to cover up, just the institutions were (probably still are) prepared to turn a blind eye to one of their own. This is why we need greater diversity in authority to help remove the idea that someone who is a bit like me wouldn't possibly do that!
 
I once came into close contact with Jimmy Saville but I don’t think it affected me. We had a first floor flat in Ilkley,next door to Betty’s. We were only 6 feet away from him when he switched on Ilkley’s Christmas lights In about 2001.
 
Jedi boro said:
I think he means no appetite because they knew that the higher up the ladder it got it wasn’t going any further.
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Is that not the same reason why Steve Tyler, Axl Rose and a host of well known British musicians (some who are popular on this board) have got away with the open secret that they’ve had sex with underage girls then?

I always thought it was because no formal complaints had been made, it was just rumour and hearsay (although it is written in books and talked it in documentaries).
 
atypical_boro said:
Is that not the same reason why Steve Tyler, Axl Rose and a host of well known British musicians (some who are popular on this board) have got away with the open secret that they’ve had sex with underage girls then?

I always thought it was because no formal complaints had been made, it was just rumour and hearsay (although it is written in books and talked it in documentaries).
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There’s a big difference between rock star groupies ( not that this right either) and a predatory paedophile and let’s be honest that is not the tip of his sordid ice berg because kids read this site I won’t elaborate more but it’s beyond depravity what he did and sadly we prob don’t even know the full picture of that even now as he had his own key to the morgue ffs.
 
Jedi boro said:
There’s a big difference between rock star groupies ( not that this right either) and a predatory paedophile and let’s be honest that is not the tip of his sordid ice berg because kids read this site I won’t elaborate more but it’s beyond depravity what he did and sadly we prob don’t even know the full picture of that even now as he had his own key to the morgue ffs.
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Savile may well be much “worse” than all those other guys. But I was under the impression underage sex was illegal regardless of “quantity.”

Oh well, they didn’t rape as many schoolchildren as Savile, so let’s just let them off eh? Wait til they die before we dismantle their legacies, saves having to prosecute them and stop listening to their music.

In a way this pretty much exemplifies how Savile got away with it. Of course when he was alive, although there were rumours and accusations and maybe even known examples, people probably didn’t know the scale of it and people didn’t want to take it on (and still don’t depending on who it is).
 
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atypical_boro said:
Is that not the same reason why Steve Tyler, Axl Rose and a host of well known British musicians (some who are popular on this board) have got away with the open secret that they’ve had sex with underage girls then?

I always thought it was because no formal complaints had been made, it was just rumour and hearsay (although it is written in books and talked it in documentaries).
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There's no comparison with what they have done and what Saville did though, so any comparison with how they got away with it is irrelevant.
We're talking about abuse, paedophilia, rape and necrophilia on an industrial scale for decades.
It's recorded fact that the Police, the BBC, hospital staff, the media, the Tory party were aware of very strong rumours, complaints and allegations for years and allowed him to get away with it.
It's also an absolute fact that formal complaints were 100% made to the police whilst he was alive.
www.theguardian.com

Jimmy Savile: police heard seven sexual assault complaints before he died

Scotland Yard team investigating Jimmy Savile abuse claims say Operation Yewtree now being treated as major incident
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
atypical_boro said:
Savile may well be much “worse” than all those other guys. But I was under the impression underage sex was illegal regardless of “quantity.”

Oh well, they didn’t rape as many schoolchildren as Savile, so let’s just let them off eh? Wait til they die before we dismantle their legacies, saves having to prosecute them and stop listening to their music.

In a way this pretty much exemplifies how Savile got away with it. Of course when he was alive, although there were rumours and accusations and maybe even known examples, people probably didn’t know the scale of it and people didn’t want to take it on (and still don’t depending on who it is).
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It's really easy to be wise after the event, as the nurse said in the first episode 'that's just Jimmy' and that's certainly probably always my view when he was alive. He always seemed a bit odd, but unless you are a victim you don't know what that means. We need to make it easier for victims to come forward, it's still not straight forward.
 
Otto42 said:
It's really easy to be wise after the event.
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Nail on the head there.

And as for 'groupie' culture, a bloke who repeatedly and knowingly has sex with underage girls is a predator, regardless of how 'rapey' he acts when he's doing it, or whether TV shows have been made about it with scary music played over the top. We didn't know the 'scale' of Savile's crimes when he was alive, and there are plenty of fellas walking free now who have probably got a fair number of secrets. The idea that 'they weren't as bad as Savile' is some kind of defence doesn't wash at all.

We are still seeing the Savile situation play out repeatedly with a number of iconic men from the 20th century who nobody wants to sink (yet), and quite probably lots of men who were never famous. There seems to come a point where society is willing to take it on and dispose of their legacy (ie cancel them and where possible press charges, unless they're dead).

Steve Tyler actually managed to persuade a mother to sign over guardianship of her daughter to him so he could take her away on tour, because she was underage (got her pregnant and forced her to have an abortion)! We don't even know if Tyler (or any of the rest of them) were or weren't anywhere near as 'guilty' as Savile in terms of quantity or scale of crimes, but as I say, I don't think quantity should be the main consideration anyway. These are open secrets, that's the point, just like it was with Savile.
 
The oddest thing for me is the people Savile mixed with, high level politicians and especially royals.
What did the security services know. If you are regularly around these people there are checks by them. I once met a gardener who worked around and in various government and royal buildings and gardens in London. He was checked out he said.
It must be an automatic exercise surely.
 
Ziggy said:
The oddest thing for me is the people Savile mixed with, high level politicians and especially royals.
What did the security services know. If you are regularly around these people there are checks by them. I once met a gardener who worked around and in various government and royal buildings and gardens in London. He was checked out he said.
It must be an automatic exercise surely.
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What did they 'know', or what were they doing is perhaps a more pertinent question.
 
When I was at school in the early 80s the school organised a coach trip to Television centre to go and watch an episode of Jim’ll Fix It being filmed.

I’ve no idea how they chose the pupils who went, but I wasn’t chosen. I was pretty devasted at the time.

Had the last laugh though didn’t I ?
 
"In June 1972, while Led Zeppelin were in Los Angeles for their 1972 North American tour, Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page, who was 28 at the time, began a relationship with 13-year-old Lotti Mattix. Mattix claims the relationship began by her being "basically kidnapped" by Led Zeppelin's tour manager Richard Cole and brought to Page's hotel room. According to Rolling Stone, Page went to great lengths to keep the relationship a secret due to it being illegal and statutory rape. At the insistence of Led Zeppelin's manager, Peter Grant, Mattix was kept in a locked hotel room with a security guard at the door during the band's subsequent U.S. touring.

Mattix did not travel with Led Zeppelin while they were on tour, but she claimed Page stationed himself in Los Angeles and would frequently fly back there to see her between concerts in the band's private jet, The Starship; and, whenever Page returned to England, Mattix says he called her every day. Their relationship lasted for more than two years, ending in 1975. Mattix claimed she ended the relationship when she was 16 years old after finding Page in bed with Bebe Buell. Buell gave an alternate version of these events, claiming that despite the fact that Mattix "had given herself exclusively to Jimmy (Page) from age 14 to 16," she was barred by Page's security from seeing him once he began dating Buell."

Must have just been a moment of madness (that lasted for two years). Almost impossible that he might have groomed and raped any other 14 year olds, I mean why would he?? Probably no corpses involved anyway. Now where's my Houses of the Holy LP....?
 
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atypical_boro said:
"In June 1972, while Led Zeppelin were in Los Angeles for their 1972 North American tour, Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page, who was 28 at the time, began a relationship with 13-year-old Lotti Mattix. Mattix claims the relationship began by her being "basically kidnapped" by Led Zeppelin's tour manager Richard Cole and brought to Page's hotel room. According to Rolling Stone, Page went to great lengths to keep the relationship a secret due to it being illegal and statutory rape. At the insistence of Led Zeppelin's manager, Peter Grant, Mattix was kept in a locked hotel room with a security guard at the door during the band's subsequent U.S. touring.

Mattix did not travel with Led Zeppelin while they were on tour, but she claimed Page stationed himself in Los Angeles and would frequently fly back there to see her between concerts in the band's private jet, The Starship; and, whenever Page returned to England, Mattix says he called her every day. Their relationship lasted for more than two years, ending in 1975. Mattix claimed she ended the relationship when she was 16 years old after finding Page in bed with Bebe Buell. Buell gave an alternate version of these events, claiming that despite the fact that Mattix "had given herself exclusively to Jimmy (Page) from age 14 to 16," she was barred by Page's security from seeing him once he began dating Buell."

Must have just been a moment of madness (that lasted for two years). Almost impossible that he might have groomed and raped any other 14 year olds, I mean why would he?? Probably no corpses involved anyway. Now where's my Houses of the Holy LP....?
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Pretty disgusting behaviour. No one is condoning that. But what point are you trying to make? That Saville was just like the other dodgy celebrities of the 60s and 70s?
I'm not sure you'll get much support with that one.
 
The Card Cheat said:
Pretty disgusting behaviour. No one is condoning that. But what point are you trying to make? That Saville was just like the other dodgy celebrities of the 60s and 70s?
I'm not sure you'll get much support with that one.
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Nope not at all. I’m saying there are lots of blokes hiding in plain sight even now.

The extent of their crimes is still not yet known, just as Savile’s weren’t while he was alive. The ones who aren’t famous will probably never be caught.

Nailing them for their crimes wasn’t and still isn’t easy, as with Savile, when they have so many friends and there is so little hard evidence. But there are plenty of open secrets, as there was with Savile.
 
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