JonnyHistory
Well-known member
You've had several, this needs to be tackled at a societal level, stopping people indiscriminately based on profiling will do less to solve the issue than actually looking at the root causes.
Stop and Search...
- Thread starter KeepCalm&CarrickOn
- Start date
Laughing
Well-known member
Some people talk absolute nonsense. A police officer can stop and ask a question of anyone. It's entirely up to the individual whether they answer, of course. If an officer wants to search you he has to have reasonable cause to suspect you are carrying either:
Drugs
Weapon
Stolen property
Something to aid in committing a crime.
If you take issue with an officer stop and searching on a whim, you are simply asking them to follow the law.
The_Lizards_Jumpers
Well-known member
And you're making out it's a small problem. Entire police forces have been found to be institutionally racist for Pete's sake.
KeepCalm&CarrickOn
Active member
It wouldn't work.
Given that all manner of people carry weapons on a daily basis and you will walk past numerous people a day that are carrying weapons.
KeepCalm&CarrickOn
Active member
So how do you resolves the issues of gangs and drugs and people trafficking and the myriad of other underlying reasons?
Jonny Ingbar
Well-known member
I think there's a common misunderstanding around what the term 'institutionally racist' means.
It refers to the collective processes and policies of the said organisation being potentially discriminatory, rather than the misconception that the organisation is collectively and consciously racist.
I was part of the national consultation around stop and search reform and it was very much driven from a political angle, rather than the practicalities and realities of why it can be an effective tactic, if used appropriately and lawfully.
Young black men are disproportionately likely to to subject to stop and search, but they are also disproportionately likely to be involved in knife crime, but the agenda is so volatile its almost impossible to have an open and constructive debate on the issue.
The root of the issues around discrimination are socio-economic, but many commentators seem reluctant to acknowledge that fact.
JonnyHistory
Well-known member
It does work, has worked and will again.
When society is richer and better educated crime levels drop. That has been seen numerous times in countries all over the world, including ours.
You can't stop cultural and societal problems by giving the police the power to target anyone regardless of reasonable cause.
You need to actually read some papers on this issue and how poverty and crime are linked ... you may come to realise just giving police officers more power and money is the going to solve anything.
JonnyHistory
Well-known member
In exactly the same way as outlined already, poverty breeds crime, it's an escape or a means to an end for most criminals.
And for the record, how has using stop and search worked out on the issues above? Crime is getting worse and your solution is more of the same that hasn't been impactful! It's the definition of insanity.
JonnyHistory
Well-known member
Where do we stop? A machete yes completely agree shouldn't be sold without regulation and controls, but is it more of less lethal than a big sharp kitchen knife?
Prohibition is rarely effective when the banned thing is readily available or easy to make (think prohibition America) banning guns worked here because it's not something you have a variant of in the draw at home.
The only way to resolve this is societally and that takes time and investment in many forms. It will take a generation or two to achieve as well, you can't ban our way to a resolution on this one.
Laughing
Well-known member
I think thats also been addressed, gangs happen due to poverty because when you see no future for yourself, you trun to crime. These are not complex ideas to understand.
The_Lizards_Jumpers
Well-known member
I acknowledge that you seem to know a lot more about the entire subject than me first of all.
However whilst I appreciate what you're saying about the term "institutionally racist" what I think that does it allows the racists within the force to thrive,, and doesn't provide a safe and effective pathway to raise those issues because of the organisations failings.
Billy69_uk
Well-known member
Were you a copper on Hearbeat? because I can guarantee that EVERY police force has coppers who have abused their powers on the basis of race.
The_Lizards_Jumpers
Well-known member
Anyone can get stabbed, but it's not anyone who's doing the stabbing - that's where the economic issues lie, with those people carrying the knives.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
It’s only a few bad apples eh? Or from your experience no bad apples…
r00fie1
Well-known member
Maybe you didnt witness or hear it.......[but as an ex-officer - you would know that excuse wouldnt stand up in court]
Unfortunately there`s a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
This isnt about a logistical issue - its about systemic abuse and deeply inbred racism.
Vile "Whats App" Groups between officers / Undercover Surveillance by the British Intelligence Services on the Campaign by the parents of Stephen Lawrence for justice / Internal Probing of Children`s private parts by officers / ................................
Jonny Ingbar
Well-known member
I think you ha e to remember that stop and search relies on the same level of belief as it does for an arrest of someone - its not indiscriminate and is an effective tactic, if used lawfully and legitimately.
It's not a solution though, I agree with that.
It's not a solution though, I agree with that.
Jedi boro
Well-known member
That’s my point as I don’t t think that is true anymore as now it’s almost a status symbol to carry one.
r00fie1
Well-known member
[Suspicion of secreting illegal substances]?
Racism cited as factor in police strip search of girl, 15, at London school
This article is more than 1 year old [March 2022]Black child’s ordeal, which involved exposure of intimate body parts, took place without parental consent, review finds
A black child was subjected by police to a strip search at her London school that involved exposure of intimate body parts, according to an official investigation which found racism was likely to have been an “influencing factor” in the officers’ actions.
No appropriate adult was present during the 15-year-old girl’s ordeal, described by a senior local authority figure as “humiliating, traumatising and utterly shocking” and which took place without parental consent and in the knowledge that she was menstruating.
Details of her treatment in her secondary school’s medical room have emerged in a child safeguarding review initiated by Hackney council after the incident in December 2020.
The child was made to bend over, spread her legs and use her hands to spread her buttocks while coughing, and she is now in therapy and self-harming, according to family members’ statements to the inquiry.
The damning report said: “Having considered the context of the incident, the views of those engaged in the review and the impact felt by Child Q and her family, racism (whether deliberate or not) was likely to have been an influencing factor in the decision to undertake a strip search.”
The report emphasised the importance of the question of whether the child was treated differently because she was black, adding this line of inquiry had been starkly reflected in several events that took place around the same time.
“Significantly, some six months prior, George Floyd was tragically killed in the USA and there were repercussions around the globe, including in the UK,” it said.
Police were called by teachers who told the review that they believed she was smelling strongly of cannabis and suspected she was carrying drugs, but none were found during the subsequent search.
The school was visited by four officers including two women who carried out the search of the girl – referred to in the report as ‘Child Q’ – while teachers remained outside the room and her mother was not contacted.
“Someone walked into the school, where I was supposed to feel safe, took me away from the people who were supposed to protect me and stripped me naked, while on my period,” the girl said in a statement, adding that she did not know if she would “ever feel normal again”.
The Metropolitan police on Tuesday said they apologised for what a senior officer described as the child’s “truly regrettable” treatment, which has been the subject of a separate Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) investigation, whose report is nearing completion.
But senior members of the local council furiously criticised the force in the wake of the review, which concluded that Child Q should never have been strip searched, and found there was an absence of a “safeguarding-first” approach from many of the professionals involved.
One of eight findings includes school staff deferring to the authority of the police on their arrival at school. It added: “They should have been more challenging to the police, seeking clarity about the actions they intended to take.”
Anntoinette Bramble, Hackney’s deputy mayor and cabinet member for children’s services, and the mayor of Hackney, Philip Glanville, said: “All aspects of this review have appalled us: the decision by police officers to strip search a child in her school; the lack of challenge by the school toward police; the absence of requirements of police to seek parental consent in the strip search of a child.
“But most stark: that racism is likely to have been an ‘influencing factor’ in the decision by police to undertake the strip search.”
They added that the child’s ordeal had been exacerbated by the fact the strip search had been carried out at school “a place where the child had an expectation of safety, security and care. Instead, she was let down by those who were meant to protect her.”
The child’s mother said in statements provided for the review that her daughter had been searched by the police and was asked to go back into an exam without any teacher asking her about how she felt, knowing what she had just gone through.
“Their position in the school is being part of the safeguarding team, but they were not acting as if they were a part of that team. This makes me sick – the fact that my child had to take her sanitary towel off and put the same dirty towel back on because they would not allow her to use the restroom to clean herself.”
The child’s maternal aunt said her niece had turned from a “a happy go lucky girl” to a “timid recluse” who hardly spoke to her. She was now so traumatised that she was self-harming and required therapy.
In a letter, the aunt added: “The family do not believe that the officers would have treated a Caucasian girl child who was on her monthly periods in the same way.”
Those who carried out the review were in agreement, concluding that racism was likely to have been an “influencing factor” in the strip search, and that the child had been subjected to “adultification” bias – where black and global majority children are held to adult standards, but their white peers are less likely to be.
In a statement released by the Metropolitan police, the force identified the girl as a 15-year-old and said that the search had been conducted after her bag and outer clothing had already been searched by staff at the school prior to police arrival.
The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, described the case as “shocking and deeply disturbing” and said that he would be closely following the outcome of the IOPC investigation.
“I am extremely concerned by the findings of this report and no child should ever have to face a situation like this,” he said.
The search took place in the same part of London where the Met apologised in January and paid compensation to an academic for “sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language” used by officers about her when she was strip searched.
www.theguardian.com
No appropriate adult was present during the 15-year-old girl’s ordeal, described by a senior local authority figure as “humiliating, traumatising and utterly shocking” and which took place without parental consent and in the knowledge that she was menstruating.
Details of her treatment in her secondary school’s medical room have emerged in a child safeguarding review initiated by Hackney council after the incident in December 2020.
The child was made to bend over, spread her legs and use her hands to spread her buttocks while coughing, and she is now in therapy and self-harming, according to family members’ statements to the inquiry.
The damning report said: “Having considered the context of the incident, the views of those engaged in the review and the impact felt by Child Q and her family, racism (whether deliberate or not) was likely to have been an influencing factor in the decision to undertake a strip search.”
The report emphasised the importance of the question of whether the child was treated differently because she was black, adding this line of inquiry had been starkly reflected in several events that took place around the same time.
“Significantly, some six months prior, George Floyd was tragically killed in the USA and there were repercussions around the globe, including in the UK,” it said.
Police were called by teachers who told the review that they believed she was smelling strongly of cannabis and suspected she was carrying drugs, but none were found during the subsequent search.
The school was visited by four officers including two women who carried out the search of the girl – referred to in the report as ‘Child Q’ – while teachers remained outside the room and her mother was not contacted.
“Someone walked into the school, where I was supposed to feel safe, took me away from the people who were supposed to protect me and stripped me naked, while on my period,” the girl said in a statement, adding that she did not know if she would “ever feel normal again”.
The Metropolitan police on Tuesday said they apologised for what a senior officer described as the child’s “truly regrettable” treatment, which has been the subject of a separate Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) investigation, whose report is nearing completion.
But senior members of the local council furiously criticised the force in the wake of the review, which concluded that Child Q should never have been strip searched, and found there was an absence of a “safeguarding-first” approach from many of the professionals involved.
One of eight findings includes school staff deferring to the authority of the police on their arrival at school. It added: “They should have been more challenging to the police, seeking clarity about the actions they intended to take.”
Anntoinette Bramble, Hackney’s deputy mayor and cabinet member for children’s services, and the mayor of Hackney, Philip Glanville, said: “All aspects of this review have appalled us: the decision by police officers to strip search a child in her school; the lack of challenge by the school toward police; the absence of requirements of police to seek parental consent in the strip search of a child.
“But most stark: that racism is likely to have been an ‘influencing factor’ in the decision by police to undertake the strip search.”
They added that the child’s ordeal had been exacerbated by the fact the strip search had been carried out at school “a place where the child had an expectation of safety, security and care. Instead, she was let down by those who were meant to protect her.”
The child’s mother said in statements provided for the review that her daughter had been searched by the police and was asked to go back into an exam without any teacher asking her about how she felt, knowing what she had just gone through.
“Their position in the school is being part of the safeguarding team, but they were not acting as if they were a part of that team. This makes me sick – the fact that my child had to take her sanitary towel off and put the same dirty towel back on because they would not allow her to use the restroom to clean herself.”
The child’s maternal aunt said her niece had turned from a “a happy go lucky girl” to a “timid recluse” who hardly spoke to her. She was now so traumatised that she was self-harming and required therapy.
In a letter, the aunt added: “The family do not believe that the officers would have treated a Caucasian girl child who was on her monthly periods in the same way.”
Those who carried out the review were in agreement, concluding that racism was likely to have been an “influencing factor” in the strip search, and that the child had been subjected to “adultification” bias – where black and global majority children are held to adult standards, but their white peers are less likely to be.
In a statement released by the Metropolitan police, the force identified the girl as a 15-year-old and said that the search had been conducted after her bag and outer clothing had already been searched by staff at the school prior to police arrival.
The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, described the case as “shocking and deeply disturbing” and said that he would be closely following the outcome of the IOPC investigation.
“I am extremely concerned by the findings of this report and no child should ever have to face a situation like this,” he said.
The search took place in the same part of London where the Met apologised in January and paid compensation to an academic for “sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language” used by officers about her when she was strip searched.
Racism cited as factor in police strip search of girl, 15, at London school
Black child’s ordeal, which involved exposure of intimate body parts, took place without parental consent, review finds
www.theguardian.com
Jonny Ingbar
Well-known member
I'm not saying race isn't an issue in policing, it absolutely is, as it is in society - policing after all is just a mirror of society.
My experience is that discrimination isn't overt in policing, nor is it extreme in nature, rather its due to ignorance, is often unconscious and due a lack of understanding.
Conscious and deliberate bias, including racism, can be a very easy allegation to make and a difficult one to prove or refute entirely, unless the actions alleged are significantly different to what would normally be expected in the circumstances.
The Chris Kaba shooting demonstrates that allegations of racial bias can be made very quickly and often without evidence, without waiting for the facts to be established. I can understand why his family would do so, grief is a terrible thing and being a young black man in London, especially those from less affluent demographics, leads to a justified mindset around bias.
But this ultimately doesn't help the issue, which is so toxic and so politicised that real change will be more difficult to achieve.