Starmer: No to a Second Referendum

[The Ruthsayer]

Will this help Labour?

 

[Jedi boro]

Yes as brexit played well in northern seats despite what some think so why risk dividing the electorate.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

Good, politicians should be making the decision to rejoin themselves as they did originally.

 

[norfolkngood]

Yes and so will anything else which doesn't give Tories an own goal to score in like suggesting a coalition with SNP.
Once the Tories are out of power the other parties can bring in a fair system of voting, which will ensure Tories never have power again. After that the world is our oyster (whatever that means).

 

[Chris_Boro]

Yes, as anything else would give the Tories a free pass with the Brexit vote in the next GE.

 

[TMG501]

Once the Tories are out of power the other parties can bring in a fair system of voting, which will ensure Tories never have power again.

Eh? A fair system to ensure that a party can't win?

 

[Nero]

Sadly it's the only option for Starmer. Brexit is the big white elephant in the room that no political party dares mention at the moment.

 

[Bernies_quiff]

Yes and so will anything else which doesn't give Tories an own goal to score in like suggesting a coalition with SNP.
Once the Tories are out of power the other parties can bring in a fair system of voting, which will ensure Tories never have power again. After that the world is our oyster (whatever that means).

Never be in power again ???
If you think that you’re in cloud cuckoo land… yes, the Tories will be ousted at the next GE, we’ll then have five to ten years of another government that will then become as unpopular as the current regime.
Then the whole merry go round will start all over again

 

[Jedi boro]

They should just play this.

I defy anyone to vote Tory after watching that, well anyone with a soul anyway.

 

[WoodallServices]

Eh? A fair system to ensure that a party can't win?

No……a fair system whereby a party that gets over 3 million votes doesn’t have 1seat, yet a party with only 14 million votes can have over 80 seats more than all other parties put together. A system that doesn’t give one party absolute power and especially one that keeps moving voting boundaries so that the vast majority of the population are ruled by a bunch of farm yackers!

 

[festa5]

Eh? A fair system to ensure that a party can't win?

He didn't say that though did he?

It would be (for most people) a nice side effect of having a fairer system (i.e. PR). It would not be the purpose of having the fairer system.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

Never be in power again ???
If you think that you’re in cloud cuckoo land… yes, the Tories will be ousted at the next GE, we’ll then have five to ten years of another government that will then become as unpopular as the current regime.
Then the whole merry go round will start all over again

We'd see a completely different Tory party with PR, we'd see it split in two to start with.

 

[newusername]

... having a fairer system (i.e. PR).

PR is not a fair system.

If most votes are split between two large parties, minority parties at the fringes hold more power than they should as they get massive concesssions to support the government & not bring it down (see Con/DUP pact for how that can work).
If one party has a large majority it encourages apathy, voter turnout in SA was c.75% at the end of the 90's & is now c.50%.

 

[Colgates_shaving_foam]

I think we have to move on,

we can't keep fighting last years election.

having said that, i'm still primed and ready.

 

[festa5]

PR is not a fair system.

If most votes are split between two large parties, minority parties at the fringes hold more power than they should as they get massive concesssions to support the government & not bring it down (see Con/DUP pact for how that can work).
If one party has a large majority it encourages apathy, voter turnout in SA was c.75% at the end of the 90's & is now c.50%.

Seems to work in the vast majority of other European countries.

FPTP certainly isn't a fair system. So if not PR then what?

 

[Andy_W]

Good tactics by Starmer, pressing for a second referendum (ahead of being in power) would be political suicide, ruling it out is a good move.

I wouldn't be against proposing to re-join the SM (or paying for access) and getting back in the CU though, but that's something for once they're in power and assessing what the need is (or having had more time to prove to the Brexit lot we need it).

The key thing is to make any sort of change you need to win first, something which labour had forgot under previous leaders. Shouting from the side with a minority doesn't do anything, you just need to give yourself a majority or enable the Tories to lose theirs, and to do that you need to sway the centre (and quite a few of the brexit lot).

 

[Muttley]

This rather well explains the Labour strategy on Brexit/Rejoin and why it is best that way

It's important to understand the path. It has stages, each of which MUST be completed before the next.
1: Denial;
2: Acknowledgement of harm;
3: Attempt to mitigate within existing arrangements;
4: Seek new deal (something like Norway);
5: Finally rejoin.
UK is clearly now out of stage 1 and well into 2. Labour's current stance is 2.5 but it dare not progress much ahead of public opinion. Importantly, they don't even need to understand the path (not sure leaders do) or conspire to follow it. They just need to want a fix. The implication for remainers/rejoiners is clear. Keep the faith. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep calling out the harms. Even if Labour can't do it, there's no reason why we can't talk about rejoining. Remember, EVERYTHING is on our side: demographics, the arguments, the experience of ordinary people. The best case for reversing Brexit was always going to be its implementation.
Revolutions end when ordinary supporters lose faith and ordinary leave voters (not noisy Brexit ideologues) ARE quietly losing faith. This will be like US Prohibition (a permanent constitutional change reversed after 13 years).
We're on track to rejoining in the early 2030s.

 

[Otto42]

PR is not a fair system.

If most votes are split between two large parties, minority parties at the fringes hold more power than they should as they get massive concesssions to support the government & not bring it down (see Con/DUP pact for how that can work).
If one party has a large majority it encourages apathy, voter turnout in SA was c.75% at the end of the 90's & is now c.50%.

That's pure PR, single transferable vote or a party list top up ensures that smaller parties get representation

 

[Andy_W]

Seems to work in the vast majority of other European countries.

FPTP certainly isn't a fair system. So if not PR then what?

Yup it does, and we should learn from them.

The minority parties would get more votes if we had PR too. A lot of the reason they don't get many votes is people know their vote would be wasted if they did, it's why everyone piles on the big two etc.

 

[Otto42]

IMHO the earliest we could have a referendum on rejoining is around 2040, this has to be a generational thing as Sturgeon is failing to see over Scottish referendum, you can't keep voting until you get the result you want or else democracy is further devalued.