But we shouldn't expect this from the Tories- they should be challenged on costings but NEVER are. Labour are ALWAYS asked how they will pay for their manifesto
Starmer Abandons Tuition Fees Pledge
- Thread starter Colin Warnek
- Start date
Andy_W
Well-known member
They need to forget about nationalising rail operators for now (probably forever too), and concentrate more on making the things which are already nationalised work.
I only really deal with the construction/ maintenance side, but probably the biggest problem with rail is the part which is already nationalised (Network Rail), anyone who has any dealings with NR knows this, either on rail schemes themselves or when trying to install infrastructure across Network Rail land (which is an extremely common requirement).
I probably have two or three teams calls, and maybe 10 standard calls per week about rail jobs (for NR as a client, or with NR as a third party), and in every single one there is a discussion about the pointless tasks and ludicrous hoops to jump through and red tape, which everyone literally laughs about. The next conversation is then about how this is going to make the cost go up (lots), then the laughing stops.
Nationalising the operators will not fix this problem, it can't, and I wouldn't want the operators nationalised until I'd seen that Network Rail could be run competently, efficiently and also without hindering other construction/ 3rd parties. It's getting worse too, not better.
It's not just on existing infrastructure either, that's really bad, but HS2 (another recently created separate public company) are even worse, everything I price up on HS2 jobs is 5-10x the cost of what it should be.
Borothruandthru
Well-known member
Reverse brexit
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
You're making it personal. It's not about Starmer the person but the options the party is taking with him at the helm.
I'd like to see the party stand firm on their promises, if that means extra spending then I'm sure there are ways to generate that money.
The burden has been moved away from those that can afford it to those that can't, this needs addressing.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
A windfall tax on the premier league say on tv revenue and large stamp duty on the sales of clubs for billions like man utd. Its not going to make a big dent on the defcit but every lttle helps.
Andy_W
Well-known member
It's mental that after the last 3 years which Starmer has been in, or 13 years of Tories (soon to be 15 years), that people think that all of this is even possible, even under normal circumstances. It's not reality.
Never mind that Covid, the war and inflation etc have put us further into in the biggest hole we've been in since the one casued by world war two (which was already bad after the depression), and then couple that with Brexit setting our No 1 ladder on fire, we're absolutely screwed.
It's going to take a decade to level off/ recover the problems caused by the last three years alone, never mind improving things.
We're over 100% debt/GDP, for the first time since the 60's (when it was on the way down), and back in 2007 we were at 35%, that is a long long way away.
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
I always feel it’s worth mentioning this on threads such as this one. A few years ago I watched a conference where various economists and business leaders were discussing how we address poverty and tackle the growing gap between those that have and those that don’t. On and on this discussion went, discussing taxes and outsourcing and resources and fiscal stimulation and rescue packages and the private sector and trickle down economics… until one economist stood up and said “this is so odd, listening to everyone here speaking about how we fix this and not one person has mentioned industrial-scale tax avoidance and how the rich are draining the economy.” He said it was like “the fire brigade discussing how put out a fire without anyone mentioning water.”
I think about that ALL the time. As I said earlier, the money IS there. It’s just being drained out of the economy by the very wealthiest while the rest of us are told there’s nothing anyone can do about it, and Nana’s new knee and those school textbooks and your local bus services and Dad’s heart tablets and your little one’s school lunches… they’ll have to wait. Or we need to rely on the benevolence of some unnamed billionaire to pop down and do some handouts.
It is mad, seeing how we’re all conditioned to believe that there’s no money left and we’re completely powerless and there’s just nothing that can be done. Food banks are a great example of how this works. They’re normal, they’re somehow a good and virtuous thing now. It’s mental.
We just have to suck it up and be thankful while those in power just trample all over anyone who disagrees, expresses concerns, dares to question anything, or calls out lies or hypocrisy.
This current situation has been 40-odd years in the making. There are things we can do, it’s just that those running our politics and its news media have absolutely no interest in doing them.
I think about that ALL the time. As I said earlier, the money IS there. It’s just being drained out of the economy by the very wealthiest while the rest of us are told there’s nothing anyone can do about it, and Nana’s new knee and those school textbooks and your local bus services and Dad’s heart tablets and your little one’s school lunches… they’ll have to wait. Or we need to rely on the benevolence of some unnamed billionaire to pop down and do some handouts.
It is mad, seeing how we’re all conditioned to believe that there’s no money left and we’re completely powerless and there’s just nothing that can be done. Food banks are a great example of how this works. They’re normal, they’re somehow a good and virtuous thing now. It’s mental.
We just have to suck it up and be thankful while those in power just trample all over anyone who disagrees, expresses concerns, dares to question anything, or calls out lies or hypocrisy.
This current situation has been 40-odd years in the making. There are things we can do, it’s just that those running our politics and its news media have absolutely no interest in doing them.
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Andy_W
Well-known member
You're 100% right that tax avoidance, and funneling money away is a massive problem but we are still effectively skint as a country, that part isn't a lie.
Sorting out the tax avoidance and funnelling money would help reduce this debt (or could be used to make some services better), but it's probably small fry compared to the damage done by the recession, brexit, pandemic, war etc.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
after the war they diddnt say we have spent all this money on war machinery the pots empty things are going to be tough its a peroid of austerity they borrowed and invested. Similarly after covid and brexit austerity was NEVER the answer further borrowing is the only way to turn the country around
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Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
Tax avoidance and funnelling money are long term events, COVID and the Ukraine war are short term bordering on being a handy excuse for the incompetence of national management.
Brexit was a serious mistake to make under the current national malaise (which has been with us for a long time).
National debt isn't debt like you might have a loan debt in real life. Its the money supply. Our system can't have a point where we suddenly have £0 national debt.
Policies like nationalising utilities, scrapping tuition fees, increasing pay for nurses, building houses are all things that will stimulate the economy. It's not like deciding whether you can afford tickets for the match.
coluka
Well-known member
How am I the one making it personal? Starmer happens to be the leader, others have made it personal calling him dishonest, untrustworthy etc I merely responded to those comments and pointed out the obvious flaw in not voting Labour, it really is a bit rich to throw that accusation at me about Starmer and ignore the folk that began to do so. However, he is the leader, so personality is a part of the issue, the tories want it that way and some on here are playing into that trap, he is not a dictator though, the party are moving with him of their own free will as far as I can see, no guns held to heads as of yet.
Of course their are ways to generate monies, he has outlined an increased windfall tax and the nom dom status as a starter. However, even that does not begin to cover what is needed to sort the economy, NHS, Social Care, public spending, welfare, inflation, future energy etc. Higher taxes are needed, but the more you go down that line the more it plays to the tory narrative of high tax high spend and it puts of voters.
Sadly, whilst I think most Brits support change and many Labour policies and ideas but they don’t want to pay for them and their default setting is personal wealth, understandable given the backdrop created by the tories. Nobody wants to be worse off and many think it should be someone other than them that pays for it. This mindset helps to keep the tories in power sadly. As such, there has to be a balance between what leaders say and want to achieve so as not to scareoff potential voters off.
The Labour party has to be electable to swing voters, centrists and former tory voters, not just traditional Labour voters. Sometimes you have to go with blind faith, trust that once in power you will start to see the shift the country needs, it wont and can’t happen overnight. I see it as a minimum 2 if not 3 term strategy being needed and will voters allow that as from where i see things, it is a case of they do until change begins and when they are not instantly better off, they whinge and moan. I like honesty, but in politics it can scare people too, people can and do end up sticking with the devil they know or abstaining, abstention is as good as a tory vote currently.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
I also found starmers pledge to increase home ownership a really stupid hollow declaration straight out of the tory playbook.
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
It’s interesting reading the reports of PMQs from today. “It’s hard to keep track of Starmer’s broken pledges,” says Sunak. And that is Starmer’s problem in a nutshell. The Tories are going to paint him as untrustworthy, a liar, a politician without conviction who supported Jeremy Corbyn but then said he didn’t.
To think this is a sensible strategy, to leave yourself open to this line of attack, is really stupid and unnecessary IMO. The Tories and the political news media will attack him relentlessly on this, this lack of principle and apparent slipperiness. They will hammer this home. And I would say that if they do do that, which they will, and Starmer doesn’t win, or we end up with a hung parliament, then that’s on him and his strategy team rather than those voters who weren’t sure whether they could believe him enough to vote for him.
He will have to take responsibility for the things he said at some point.
To think this is a sensible strategy, to leave yourself open to this line of attack, is really stupid and unnecessary IMO. The Tories and the political news media will attack him relentlessly on this, this lack of principle and apparent slipperiness. They will hammer this home. And I would say that if they do do that, which they will, and Starmer doesn’t win, or we end up with a hung parliament, then that’s on him and his strategy team rather than those voters who weren’t sure whether they could believe him enough to vote for him.
He will have to take responsibility for the things he said at some point.
Piccadilly Day Tripper
Well-known member
I agree. I've got a friend who runs a very successful local litter picking group, making their local area less messy and helping out in their spare time. it's practically a second job for him now. Yet no-one seems to question why this group is needed at all and how council cuts directly leads to our home towns being poorer places to live.
Cameron's big society bull**** has led to a situation where hard pressed people have to work together just to keep their heads above water (food banks, other charitable services, mental health groups) while those creaming it off the top and returning to their cotswold farmhouses get to applaud the 'community spirit of the British people'.
The Ruthsayer
Well-known member
I could not agree more. I stated a couple of months ago that this is the reason Labour will not win a majority in the HoC next election.
Since then, his behaviour has only given more ammunition to the Tories and their subservient press.
h_m_boro
Well-known member
I think Starmer will have enough for a majority only because the swing voters are p*ssed off with the Tory sleaze and corruption machine - not because they see him as the fella to drag the country out of the swamp.
But, the majority predicted today won't be anywhere near come election time once the RWM get ramped up.
Can see this be the dirtiest UK election ever, for personal attacks, lies, untruths etc. May even be looking at something worse than BrEXit......
But, the majority predicted today won't be anywhere near come election time once the RWM get ramped up.
Can see this be the dirtiest UK election ever, for personal attacks, lies, untruths etc. May even be looking at something worse than BrEXit......
