Starmer Abandons Tuition Fees Pledge

National debt isn't debt like you might have a loan debt in real life. Its the money supply. Our system can't have a point where we suddenly have £0 national debt.

Policies like nationalising utilities, scrapping tuition fees, increasing pay for nurses, building houses are all things that will stimulate the economy. It's not like deciding whether you can afford tickets for the match.
Yeah, I know that, but it's still debt, which is costing nearly 100bn a year to service (by the taxpayer), which is about 5% of total spending. That money goes straight into the pockets of the old and wealthy, investment funds and foreign investors. It's not being spent back in the economy, it's being held as the people who own the debt don't need to spend it (hence why they hold investments), or it goes straight out the door abroad.

Some countries can get near 0%, but it's impossible for us of course. The long-term target will be to get that below 50% I expect (which would be ok), but that's probably decades away. Like I said, it used to be around 35% before the recession.

Nationalising things doesn't guarantee you make money from them or that the services would become cheaper for the end user, far from it. You've still got to buy them, and then have to maintain the efficiency and profit that the private companies do, to even think about it being worthwhile.

Nationalising things can be good if you can run them well, but we don't really have a great record of doing that. If we did, I would be all for it, but I'd want to see some proof that we can turn around the poorly ran nationalised aspects first.
 
It’s interesting reading the reports of PMQs from today. “It’s hard to keep track of Starmer’s broken pledges,” says Sunak. And that is Starmer’s problem in a nutshell. The Tories are going to paint him as untrustworthy, a liar, a politician without conviction who supported Jeremy Corbyn but then said he didn’t.

To think this is a sensible strategy, to leave yourself open to this line of attack, is really stupid and unnecessary IMO. The Tories and the political news media will attack him relentlessly on this, this lack of principle and apparent slipperiness. They will hammer this home. And I would say that if they do do that, which they will, and Starmer doesn’t win, or we end up with a hung parliament, then that’s on him and his strategy team rather than those voters who weren’t sure whether they could believe him enough to vote for him.

He will have to take responsibility for the things he said at some point.
Most will hopefully see through Sunak's comments, they're not that far off being true, albeit they're 100% irrelevant as he's not PM and not been in power for the last 13 years like the Tories have. It's not like he's been elected PM based on those pledges either, that's what the manifesto will be for.

Anyone with half a brain should know that priorities need to change after Covid, War, Energy Crisis, Inflation, >100% national debt etc, and should also know he's not a mind reader and couldn't have put those in his pledges before they all happened.

However, he's up against the tories, who have been in power for what will be 15 years, and all they've done is **** things up, when they've actually been in power.
 
Anyone with half a brain should know that priorities need to change after Covid, War, Energy Crisis, Inflation, >100% national debt etc, and should also know he's not a mind reader and couldn't have put those in his pledges before they all happened.

:rolleyes:

The "uniting the party" pledge went out the window in the first week when he tried to cover up the Labour Leaks document, gave a big cash payout to the saboteurs and set up a enquiry to find out who was responsible for writing the document.

The "progressive taxation" pledge went early 2021 when he whipped the party to vote against increasing corporation tax.

The "nationalise gas and electricity" pledge was ludicrously dropped as soon as the energy crisis started and the weaknesses of leaving ourselves open to the volatility of private market interests was exposed.

Sorry Andy this just doesn't wash. The policies aren't changing in response to external factors. They're changing as Starmer's factions grip on the party becomes more assured.

:ROFLMAO: haha just thinking about the idea you'd need to be a mindreader to know the tories had increased the national debt in 2020.
 
Most will hopefully see through Sunak's comments, they're not that far off being true, albeit they're 100% irrelevant as he's not PM and not been in power for the last 13 years like the Tories have. It's not like he's been elected PM based on those pledges either, that's what the manifesto will be for.

Anyone with half a brain should know that priorities need to change after Covid, War, Energy Crisis, Inflation, >100% national debt etc, and should also know he's not a mind reader and couldn't have put those in his pledges before they all happened.

However, he's up against the tories, who have been in power for what will be 15 years, and all they've done is **** things up, when they've actually been in power.
But you would say that “anyone with half a brain” should know that Corbyn is not an anti-Semite, that Labour did not trash the economy, that people in little boats crossing the channel or any other area of water are not the reason you can’t get a pay rise or a doctor’s appointment, that people across the country aren’t on strike for pleasure. The fact is the media drive, force, hammer and smash home the message that these things are nothing to with them or the politicians they fervently endorse, whose messages they shout and scream about and ram down our throats.

Their messaging works. It certainly pollutes and dictates the toxic political discourse in UK politics.

With that in mind, I certainly hope Starmer and his team have worked out a plan for what they’ll do once those people in the media decide to focus in on the fact he’s lied and bullsh*tted his way to the top of the Labour party. They’re not applauding him now, are they. They’re saying thanks for doing everything we asked of you, and now you’ve shown yourself to have no principles, well, guess what, f*ck you too.

You would really hope that he’s factored all of this in otherwise he is absolutely screwed.

And it’s already started, let’s be honest. I hope it was worth all the lying and discarding of pledges and promises and screwing everyone over along the way.
 
Yeah, I know that, but it's still debt, which is costing nearly 100bn a year to service (by the taxpayer), which is about 5% of total spending. That money goes straight into the pockets of the old and wealthy, investment funds and foreign investors. It's not being spent back in the economy, it's being held as the people who own the debt don't need to spend it (hence why they hold investments), or it goes straight out the door abroad.
If that investment leads to growing the economy then 5% becomes less than 5% as the economy gets bigger. That's the whole point of "stimulating an economy". Even Liz Truss understands that.

Also, you don't need to profit from an investment anyway. We spend money on services because we need them. The NHS is a service, we don't need to profit from it. It's ok that it costs money. Same as all the other things we talk about nationalising. They are services we need and paying someone else to do them, that can charge us whatever they want is less beneficial than owning and operating them ourselves. We benefit in other ways from having these services. We aren't wasting money paying profits to shareholders for one. That money instead is spent within the economy. We have better educated, healthier, more efficient people and businesses when public services are working which leads to increased productivity and happier people.

Convincing people that public services should be profitable is part of the Tory playbook. Going along with it is just idiotic when it is easy to refute.
 
:rolleyes:

The "uniting the party" pledge went out the window in the first week when he tried to cover up the Labour Leaks document, gave a big cash payout to the saboteurs and set up a enquiry to find out who was responsible for writing the document.

The "progressive taxation" pledge went early 2021 when he whipped the party to vote against increasing corporation tax.

The "nationalise gas and electricity" pledge was ludicrously dropped as soon as the energy crisis started and the weaknesses of leaving ourselves open to the volatility of private market interests was exposed.

Sorry Andy this just doesn't wash. The policies aren't changing in response to external factors. They're changing as Starmer's factions grip on the party becomes more assured.

:ROFLMAO: haha just thinking about the idea you'd need to be a mindreader to know the tories had increased the national debt in 2020.
Back on the labour leaks thing I see, I'm sure I covered this the other day? The investingation was found to play little to no part in an any results and which acknowledged L:abour had massive problems on both sides, and was poorly run. If you're going to use something don't be disingenuous.

Increasing corporation tax just hurts small/ micro business owners disproportionally. The mid to large ones R&D their way out of it, or are large enough to funnel money abroad. I'm all for tax increases, but this isn't a good one, especially not at a time when businesses are getting screwed by brexit etc. Cutting tax loopholes would penalise the rich more, and without impacting the small/ micro businesses also.

Nationalising energy suppliers and distributors at a time when energy prices are hiked would be an absolutely ludicrous decision. You would have to buy the companies at a local peak, with over-inflated valuations, which valuations would then drop like a stone when energy prices dive, and they will dive, it's just a case of when. If we were to nationalise this, now isn't the time.

Nationalising energy production is a good idea (for what we can produce), but it would need to be funded somehow. I'm not against foreign investment in providing renewables (but no fossil fuels, and very little nuclear) but they need to be tied to the strike price, not like how the Tories let them off the leash to charge what they want and delay the contracts starting, that was ludicrous.

We can't do anything about the companies based offshore, and those supplying us from abroad, like gas, and electric which largely comes from gas, and gas being the most reliable of our major sources when the renewables are low short term etc.

Do you not accept that priorities have to change after a pandemic, war, energy crisis, hyper inflation, 100% debt etc? If not, why?

I'm not on about national debt in 2000, when it was 80-85%, and the curve had finally stopped going up, I'm on about the 20-25% rise which came in the space of three years since Starmer came in. It's forecast to be 110% by the time of the next election, nearly a 40% increase over 80%.

Again, why so disingenuous? My bet is he would have been basing the pledges on ~80-85%, not the 110% that it's likely to be when the next election comes, do you not agree, if so, why?
 
Strongly beg to differ. The NHS, East coast mainline, Transport for London.
I'm not convinced the NHS is well run, not since the Tories have been in anyway (and they're in 2/3rds of the time), but I'm open-minded on the times before that, seems a long time ago now. To me they take advantage of the good nature of the staff.

It's a different world for them now though, they are of course criminally underfunded and screwed for staff at the moment too, even more taking advantage of their remaining staff's good nature. It's hard to say how well its ran now, as there's no way of knowing as it's been completely screwed by this government and brexit.

East coast mainline is expensive for customers, probably one of the most expensive lines in Europe, like all our rail lines, but they like all the others get their hands tied by Network Rail who own and operate the track. I'm not sure how reliable it is, or rail journey quality compares, but again NR hampers them in those respects also.

Highways England are badly run also from my weekly dealings, not quite as bad as Network rail though.

The forces are not particularly well run either, I knew it was bad when I was in, but only when I left did I actually realise fully how inefficient and wasteful that actually was. Anyone I know who is still in says it's much worse now also.

No idea about TFL, how that compares to how other nations run public transport in their capital city, but public transport in london is great from my experience. Whether it's good value for fares I'm not so sure. It doesn't make any money though (not for overall cost), and it gets a lot of infrastructure and maintenance funding from the government, which I think is about 1-2bn a year.
 
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What has Keir Starmer said about scrapping tuition fees?

Keir Starmer said on Tuesday that Labour is planning to “move on” from this commitment.

Asked about the policy on BBC Radio 4, he said: “We are likely to move on from that commitment because we do find ourselves in a different financial situation.”

But Mr Starmer said that the current system was “unfair” and that it “doesn’t really work” for students or for universities.

He said the party is “looking at options for how we fund these fees”, though he didn’t say what these are.


I don't really get what the problem is, with what he's said?

We are in a much, much worse financial situation, than when the pledge was made, does anyone not agree with that?

Scrapping fees would cost £10bn a year, is that something we can afford to do now?

They might still be able to halve the fees, or do something about the interest charged on student loans, as that is absolutely ludicrous.

I actually wouldn't mind a tax on the high earners who benefitted from higher education when it was free (include myself in this), who then went on to use that, but I expect that would go down like a lead balloon. Obviously, this would be intended to subsidise further education for those who need it now, who have to pay, to bring their costs down.
 
Andy I don't feel like I need to say anything in response. You've said it all. Against corporation tax, against nationalisation, don't think the NHS is a good example of socialist success... You're a tory. Of course you're happy with the party the way its going.
 
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